New Supercharger Fair Use Policy

[AnxietyRanger]

Quite frankly, I am surprised the ban took this long.

It is freeloading and overloading the system.

As an investor you are sucking up my profit.

As an owner, I appreciate finding a stall right away especially since while on a road trip it requires an hour to charge and hit the wc.

So basically the long-distance driving edge for Teslas disappears for commercial-use. Commercial users are down to 50 kWh CHAdeMO and Level/Type 2, even when current policy already called for paying for Supercharger use (e.g. Model 3 or part Model S/X)?

It is hard to see how this could not hamper adoption if these rules remain. IMO Tesla would be wise to simply offer a price structure that reflects their costs and apply that to new cars. As things stand, commercial, legitimate long-distances drivers are excluded entirely.

Now, if we can start punishing ICE car drivers.

Some commercial users may have to go ICE if a solution for their long-distance needs isn't available. (IMO commercial users are much more likely to need long-distance charging (for legitimate non-abusive scenarios) than private commuters for whom most of the driving slower home/office charging may suffice...

 

[EscoguyS75]

You're dreaming if you're talking about So Cal power rates. If you're near San Diego and your power provider is SDG&E, I highly doubt even your average per kWh residential rate (assuming you have no solar) is anywhere near as low as those figures. At those cheap rates, you'll have plenty of locals going to local SCs to charge since it's way cheaper than charging at home.

Those rates you want are way low and don't take into account demand charges which are common on commercial power plans, esp. when there are large loads.

I pointed to a lengthy report awhile ago which I haven't a chance to do more than skim at Rocky Mountain Institute and Evgo fleet and tariff analysis (relates to DC FCing) - My Nissan Leaf Forum

Their press release (now gone) had this (PDF also mentions the figure):

On page 23 of the PDF (http://blog.rmi.org/Content/Files/eLab_EVgo_Fleet_and_Tariff_Analysis_2017.pdf), I noticed a graph in terms of $ per mile for SDGE for 2017 that for SDGE AL-TOU is ~34 cents per MILE and for SDGE Public GIR iooks to be about 5 cents per MILE.

Peak demand charges can make up over 90% of electricity costs for electric vehicle charging stations points to this report and says

I think I see what they're talking about on page 22. On SCE TOU EV4, fixed costs were $220, energy was $278 (which would be per kWh) and demand charges are $1,362 (which are per kW), that adds up to $1,860 but somehow they list $1,938.

TonyWilliams has posted a bunch of times about demand charges on MNL in your area on SDG&E. Examples:
San Francisco Bay Area Quick Chargers Getting them sooner - My Nissan Leaf Forum
I need an under 20KW DC ChaDeMo Quick Charger - My Nissan Leaf Forum
$9900 Nissan Level III chargers come to the US - Page 3 - My Nissan Leaf Forum

Wayback Machine even on page 5 discusses hypothetical demand charges for installing a 25 kW vs. 50 kW CHAdeMO DC FC. That's $700/month for a 25 kW unit vs $1400/mo for a 50 kW unit.

Utility grade solar is produced in California and Texas at 3.4 cents/kWh wholesale.
Solar city can produce at 7 cents kWh with their systems when the are large enough but it's cheaper to get at the wholesale market during the day.

For off peak ALTOU rates in SDGE are 8.7 cents kWh for commercial in summer and 8.8 cents kWh for winter.

For power purchased from the grid, demand charges are driven by the highest 15 min pull in a given months bill and not by incremental users. So as soon as you have all Supercharges running at once, the max demand charge is determined, additional users won't add more cost.

There is an extreme excess of solar production in California being given away to Arizona now. Wholesalers pay AZ to take the excess power. Tesla can contract at the wholesale level and avoid demand charges too. Pay attention to AL-TOU.


New Rates for SDGE going into effect in 2019 with new time of use schedule

 

[EscoguyS75]

To clarify, Elon himself presented the 7 cent/kWh for semi trucks. I think they plan on producing this power with solar during the day or buying it at wholesale. Either option gives plenty of margin for a 7 cent plus markup. I'm advocating they could sell for perhaps 12 cents/kwh during the day. Based on SDGE off peak rates, they may nee to go a bit higher but the AL-TOU rates range from 8.7 cents to 13.3 cents/kwh. This is what power should normally cost and will drive EV adoption.

 

[schonelucht]

This is what they should have been required to do from the beginning.

Except that Tesla will not sell a supercharger to a private entity. Amsterdam Airport taxi service (200 Teslas) have asked and were denied. Finally they got a few dedicated 60kW charger from Tesla. But not a supercharger.

 

[Big Earl]

Except that Tesla will not sell a supercharger to a private entity. Amsterdam Airport taxi service (200 Teslas) have asked and were denied. Finally they got a few dedicated 60kW charger from Tesla. But not a supercharger.

Those are Superchargers. They're just configured differently and only provide 60 kW max to each vehicle, which is what a Supercharger charging two cars at once would be doing anyway (assuming both cars plugged in at the same time with the same SOC). I suspect the 60 kW limit is to preserve battery longevity since the assumption is that these cars will charge at these stations exclusively.

 

[LCR1]

*sugar*, your wholesale in Cali is 2-4x my retail in Texas.

 

[BerTX]

*sugar*, your wholesale in Cali is 2-4x my retail in Texas.

Shhh! We don't have troops on the Western Border.

 

[SageBrush]

The Model 3, with its $36k pricing, is ripe for commercial abuse of Superchargers.
Good for Tesla on nipping this in the bud.

I suppose it puts commercial drivers on an even footing with private Tesla owners dependent on urban, Tesla installed, destination 32 Amp AC chargers. That sounds contentious.

 

[arnis]

I think it went too far. I do accept and approve no "FREE" supercharging in these scenarios.
But I don't like excessive simplicity.
For example, paying for any low-usage supercharger session - I see absolutely no excuse to block those
whatever the intent, taxi or delivery vehicle. Supercharger doing nothing is worst possible outcome.
I do agree that taxi driver does not have a priority when trying to charge at a location that has less than
2-4 stalls available (navigation screen onboard). So... check on map, click to book a session. Not that complicated.
If location has 0-2 stalls available, charging session (not free) will be denied. Very easy and solves rush hour problem.
All vehicles flagged "commercial" should show SC icons on the map with different color if session can not be booked.
Booking is only active when navigation is set to that location. Booking is required so when Taxi arrives to overcrowded
Supercharger location it still has the right to charge there as it already arrived.

 

[brkaus]

Tesla is indeed very bureaucratic and I would say this kind of old-owner confirmation after registration never happens with used cars normally.

The Tesla owner web portal, app, and API allow the car to be tracked, unlocked, and started. They need to have a higher standard for this reason.

 

[kingjamez]

I think this policy is more than just keeping SC's open for "normal people". I'd bet that Taxi services SC far more often than a regular individual and that causes more rapid degradation of the battery pack. So this could also be a warranty issue. They simply don't want cars to always fast charge.

-Jim

 

[schonelucht]

Those are Superchargers. They're just configured differently and only provide 60 kW max to each vehicle\.

Then, by definition, it's not a supercharger since there is nothing 'super' about 60kW.

What's in the box is irrelevant, what counts is what power comes out of it.

 

[SageBrush]

For off peak ALTOU rates in SDGE are 8.7 cents kWh for commercial in summer and 8.8 cents kWh for winter.

AL TOU Rates as of 12/2017

Can anybody read this gibberish ?

 

[EscoguyS75]

AL TOU Rates as of 12/2017

Can anybody read this gibberish ?

The rates I quote go into effect in 2019. There are a lot of shifts happening. I'll get the links from the industrial solar installer who provided them.

These are commercial rates.

http://www2.sdge.com/tariff/com-elec/ALTOUSecondary.pdf

 

[SageBrush]

The rates I quote go into effect in 2019. There are a lot of shifts happening. I'll get the links from the industrial solar installer who provided them.

These are commercial rates.

http://www2.sdge.com/tariff/com-elec/ALTOUSecondary.pdf

Thanks -- much easier to read.

This is a tutorial from SDG&E that explains amongst other things non-coincident demand charges and has an example bill.

Bottom line: Up to $34/kW demand charges in the summer peak hours.
Wow. At 100% utilization that adds almost 5 cents per kWh. At a perhaps more reasonable 20% utilization, 25 cents a kWh demand charges.

Elon's plan to solarize and add batteries to Superchargers is an economic imperative.

 

[scaesare]

Then, by definition, it's not a supercharger since there is nothing 'super' about 60kW.

What's in the box is irrelevant, what counts is what power comes out of it.

So what's the arbitrary line for "SuperCharger"?

Are these just "Gee Whiz Chargers"?

 

[Tina C]

I think this is vague and bad optics for Tesla. Better to charge for supercharging if car is registered to a company. Then work with high use fleets like taxis to have private Supercharger on their premises that they pay for the power. Call it Comcharger or something else and don’t put it on the supercharger map.

 

[Merrill]

If you are using your Tesla as a business to make money you need to set up a HPWC at your place of business. I understand why Tesla is doing this and the superchargers need to stay open and available for people who need them for travel. As the Model 3 kicks in superchargers are going to become more crowded.

 

[SO16]

If I go to a BMW dealership, with a car registered to my name, they will not deny warranty service on door handles because a mobile app is still in someone else's name. (But then BMW is not looking to interject themselves and policy changes into the ownership change.)

The only actual example of that, that I could think of, if Renault renting the original Zoe batteries. That, obviously, had some implications over trade-ins. But it was a model that was of course crystal clear at the time of original sale...

Perhaps Tesla will change as they mature.

 

[LCR1]

I don't think Tesla expected people to use $100K cars for a taxi either.