NTSB update for Autopilot has me looking for an anti-nag device

[ATPMSD]

put constant torque on the wheel

If you “hang” you hand on the wheel, this is what you are doing.

 

[ATPMSD]

Just for clarity, the NTSB is an investigative agency and can only make recommendations, which they did. They also criticized the NHTSA. Tesla made changes at the behest of The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA).

”Tesla…agreed to a voluntary recall implementing some software changes, though it did not agree with the NHTSA's analysis”

 

[KLam]

Just drive like you normally drive with hands on the steering wheel. You will gradually learn the steering wheel torques when FSD is driving. If the warning comes up and you have trouble to learn the de-nag process just tap on you brake to disengage. Don't fight the system.

There is no point of complaining its unsafe or something. You are risking the same or more if you are not on FSD and try to work on your screen.

I am lucky I guess as I seldom get nags. I have noticed that if I am thinking about something or the road conditions getting a little complicated, the system will try to nag.

 

[JB47394]

voice only works soso

What additional commands would you like to see implemented?

 

[uscbucsfan]

What additional commands would you like to see implemented?

Better voice recognition. It used to be great, but rarely understands me. It's certainly worse in my MS than my MY.

 

[69KWH]

I like the concept behind the control board based anti-nag device but do not feel comfortable disassembling the steering wheel and messing with the airbag to install it. Is there another option that isn't as risky, maybe using the CANBUS/OBDII port instead?

 

[Supcom]

I foresee a future software update that ignores scrollwheel input for nag purposes.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

You can get away with a lot of screen poking and looking around as long as you have a hand on the wheel.

You can poke at the screen for a long time if you're holding the wheel.

This is not true.

At least in 11.4.9, 2023.44.30.8, it is very sensitive to inattention.

You can have your hands firmly on the wheel but it will nag you for hands if you look at the screen too much. If it really doesn’t like it, it will tell you to pay attention to the road. Doesn’t matter what you do with your hands. Even if they are both on the wheel providing net torque (non-zero) it will ask for a torque change.

Whenever I am super attentive with eyes on road and both hands on the wheel, I rarely get torque nags. As soon as gaze starts to deviate to do nav stuff, etc., it will start throwing warnings.

I think today I made it to work without a single torque warning (25 minutes). But it is possible I just forgot about them (very easy to forget, since with time dismissing them becomes just routine). I’ll have to review the video.

Someone should make a video anyway.

Anyway I think the system is great, and they should continue to work to fine tune it and reduce nags to zero when driver’s eyes are laser focused on the road ahead. They seem fairly close. But the occasional nags that are false positives are annoying.

 

[dcfas]

It’s too bad. It can seem at times a nearly constant annoyance, imho. What bugs me is seeing Chevy commercials on tv every night with deep grinning drivers take their hands off the wheel and sigh with gratification with their ride.

As a side note it was a really foggy day here and on my way home from work the car frequently reduced the speed suddenly due to poor visibility. Then it would floor it back up to speed. After the third time within a couple miles I started to feel like a yo-yo.

All that being said, I agree, safety first. So I continue to adjust and deal with it. No aids for me.

 

[bpnine]

1. Haven't got the update yet.

2. Had a new error message this week during highway driving on FSDb. The blue flash started then the audio. The driver had responded to the flash as usual (additional torque by the arm already in position through the wheel) but it didn't work and went to audio warning so at that point I'm watching the screen (driver is, you know, actually attentive so not looking at the screen.) Two warnings were coming up. The first was the pay attention. The second was a triangle with an exclamation point saying something like, "Defeat device detected."

We own no defeat device and have not updated the car in response to the recall but this was a new response to the driver's torque method that has been used for over 10K of highway driving on AP/EAP and then FSDb.

(Here's a reddit post with a picture of the same warning:

https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/zvtr0k

)

What pissed me off completely was that the warning appeared for a second then disappeared so while I was reading it to the driver, the driver didn't believe me that this was something new since it wasn't on the screen when they looked at the screen (and it didn't show up under the notifications when I pulled those up.) The effin design of the warning completely forces driver distraction in order to prevent driver distraction. If you are going to put messages on the screen, leave them there long enough to be read by the driver when they have a moment to glance over safely. Alternatively, build the effin car correctly, with a heads up display to eliminate the driver having to move head and adjust eye focus to read the warning AND put in a steering wheel sensor so that the car is warning for improper use of the L2 "fake self driving" not constantly throwing up false positives thus making defeat devices seem like the only solution to being able to use the driver assist feature one paid for.

I've gotten 2 or 3 completely false defeat device complaints (I don't have one) to which I immediately yank the wheel to disconnect and then leave them some spicy swearing as a comment. That's annoying but not a daily issue, my more daily problem is I do like to relax by driving with both hands on the wheel like driving class teaches. Two handed driving isn't allowed in this car -- you're only allowed to drive with one hand or the other and putting continuous pressure on -- and its tiring and unsafe. I *can* drive fine hanging my arm as a weight on one side or the other without complaints and only an occasional disconnect during a freeway curve.

The 'pay attention' nags are easy to get rid of (my wife keeps telling me that message is popping up while I'm driving, I usually don't see it because its in a small font and flashes away quickly and I'm distracted watching the road) -- I just put the sunvisor in front of the camera so it can't see my eyes. In that mode it will still whine if it sees your hands near the console but its no longer a 'pay attention' nag flickering on and off every few minutes and beeping.

I've mostly stopped using the beta daily after the nag release, its pretty bad now (I've been on the beta since early 10 days and have put on a lot of long haul freeway time, about 20k miles worth, on FSDb). I'm thinking of figuring out how to disconnect the speakers or amplifier with a mechanical switch because the emergency lane stuff is always alarming (in dumb places like the drivethrough and my driveway) and it scares the crap out of everyone in the car. I don't want to completely disable it because I want it to help if I pass out or fall asleep on the freeway, its a great safety feature.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Just for clarity, the NTSB is an investigative agency and can only make recommendations, which they did. They also criticized the NHTSA. Tesla made changes at the behest of The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA).

”Tesla…agreed to a voluntary recall implementing some software changes, though it did not agree with the NHTSA's analysis”

I was going to point this out. The NTSB had nothing to do with the latest recall, it was fully the NHTSA. The NTSB does get involved in certain crash investigations, but there was no indication they were involved in the current recall, although some of the fixes may align with previous recommendations (which NHTSA didn't make Tesla follow).

People need to stop using them interchangeably.

 

[CCopperpot]

I like the concept behind the control board based anti-nag device but do not feel comfortable disassembling the steering wheel and messing with the airbag to install it. Is there another option that isn't as risky, maybe using the CANBUS/OBDII port instead?

I can’t say for certain but I’ll go out on a limb and say that no, you likely can’t get this sort of feature via CANBUS since this literally hijacks the scroll wheel hardware. Pretty sure that would be impossible via a standard communication port

(Well, maybe not impossible but def unlikely)

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

It can seem at times a nearly constant annoyance, imho

If you keep your eyes on the road and off the screen it does fine.

That's annoying but not a daily issue, my more daily problem is I do like to relax by driving with both hands on the wheel like driving class teaches. Two handed driving isn't allowed in this car -- you're only allowed to drive with one hand or the other and putting continuous pressure on -- and its tiring and unsafe

I don’t have this problem in a 2018 Model 3 running 2023.44.30.8, FSD 11.4.9.

If you just drive with two hands and forget about applying pressure it works great, with nearly zero nagging, as long as eyes are locked on the road and conditions provide excellent certainty for the system. That’s what I do.

As soon as eyes drift to the screen at all you will open yourself up to torque nags and even pay attention nags (has to be egregious).

Just my experience. There are definitely still occasional false nags which Tesla should work to reduce, but generally easily they are dismissed with peripheral vision through counter tug.

Overall much improved from prior nag system. They really are much less frequent after they started doing good driver monitoring using the camera (which works surprisingly well). It’s been a long road and some releases have destroyed it, but right now it is good.

 

[B_E_V]

The thing I strongly dislike about the nag recall implementation is the cry-wolf BEEP that I often experience when I first engage/re-engage FSD.

My habit has been to engage FSD on straight sections with no car near by, then adjust the max speed, then relax with a hand on the wheel. However, the adjust speed annoying-unpleasant-feature "resume previous speed" instead of single click for 1 MPH change, spin for 5 MPH change that Tesla quietly added quite awhile ago now means you MUST look at the screen to correctly adjust the speed which triggers the BEEP. Since most of my drives involve multiple disengagements of FSD, the cry-wolf BEEP has gotten very old. Though I do seem to have gotten better at staring straight ahead for 30 seconds or so after invoking FSD to avoid the BEEP.

Thankfully, after a minute or two the nags I experience seem about the same as pre-recall. However, that cry-wolf BEEP is really annoying, despite/because I always run in Joe Mode.

As an aside, this summer I had an eye infection which swelled one eye almost completely closed for over a week. FSD was very very unhappy with me. The first workaround was sunglasses, which wasn't practical at night. However, after I purchased a black eye patch, FSD was again willing to let me drive with one eye open.

 

[Larry Hutchinson]

I do and still get nagged.

The two fool proof ways I've found to stop the nagging is to either put constant torque on the wheel (almost fighting against the AP without giving it too much to actually knock it out of AP) or to occasionally articulate the scroll wheels every few seconds.

l’ve posted this elsewhere but:
(TLDR: constant torque no longer works, now need periodic direction switching)

For many years I have driven with autopilot and then FSDb using one hand at 5 o’clock or 7 o’clock to provide continuous torque. Never was bothered by nags. Now, as of the holiday update, I get the "Apply slight turning force to steering wheel" nag even though I am already dong so. I have tried increasing the torque when I see the message but that did nothing. However, momentarily reversing the torque dismisses the nag instantly.



The nag appears to happen every 2-3 minutes or so but I haven’t had a chance to do much experimenting. For example, I wonder if there is any difference between providing continuous torque vs none at all.



This is in my 2018 3 and my 1019 X, neither of which have cabin cameras.

2023.44.30.8, FSDb v11.4.9

 

[Larry Hutchinson]

I don’t have this problem in a 2018 Model 3 running 2023.44.30.8, FSD 11.4.9.

If you just drive with two hands and forget about applying pressure it works great, with nearly zero nagging, as long as eyes are locked on the road and conditions provide excellent certainty for the system. That’s what I do.

As soon as eyes drift to the screen at all you will open yourself up to torque nags and even pay attention nags (has to be egregious).

Your 2018 m3 doesn’t have a cockpit camera does it? Mine doesn’t.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

You’re 2018 m3 doesn’t have a cockpit camera does it? Mine doesn’t.

Mine does. Did not realize any Model 3 did NOT come with cabin camera (though of course they lacked IR illuminators until recent years). I thought they were all supposed to be Robotaxi Ready (TM).

(TLDR: contiguous torque no longer works, now need periodic direction switching)

However, momentarily reversing the torque dismisses the nag instantly.

That’s right.

For example, I wonder if there is any difference between providing continuous torque vs none at all.

I don’t think there is much value in it. Just dismiss with torque counter to whatever you happen to have (if any), when it appears.

Overall the nags don’t really show up for very long periods (hard to tell true interval because interventions of some form occur every couple minutes) if you pay attention and don’t look at the screen.

If you have no cabin camera it probably sucks.

It’s not really that annoying to have to dismiss a false-positive nag every 10 minutes or whatever since you’re just driving anyway. Would be cool if they went away entirely at some point when it was clear you were paying attention and had hands on the wheel, but getting pretty close to that point now.

 

[KArnold]

People have gotten used to acknowledging nags with a scroll wheel adjustment or a quick grab of the wheel, then going back to hands-off until the next nag. The new update is very intolerant of this practice

I'm not so sure. My nags when hand free are similar to Omar on v12. He was clearly using a cheat device (or Elon mode) in his recent v11 videos.

Maybe this hack doesn't work with v12? I've not seen him resolve one using the volume control. But obviously we have slim pickings at the moment. He's much better when muted, BTW.

 

[Larry Hutchinson]

Mine does. Did not realize any Model 3 did NOT come with cabin camera (though of course they lacked IR illuminators until recent years). I thought they were all supposed to be Robotaxi Ready (TM).

Yes, right after posting that, I thought, am I sure I have no cabin camera? Pretty sure no IR illuminators, though.

 

[SidetrackedSue]

I'm thinking of figuring out how to disconnect the speakers or amplifier with a mechanical switch because the emergency lane stuff is always alarming (in dumb places like the drivethrough and my driveway) and it scares the crap out of everyone in the car. I don't want to completely disable it because I want it to help if I pass out or fall asleep on the freeway, its a great safety feature.

On my car there is a setting for lane departure warning (I assume this is what you are referring to). You can turn that alarm off and still get a signal through a vibrating wheel.

It scared the effin crap out of me one night as I was getting on the highway in fog and heavy rain, without the defroster working so I was trying to voice control that but the fan was on high so it couldn't hear my subsequent commands. I didn't want to take my hands off the wheel or eyes off the road to hit screen in the exact spot (defrost is one of my apps on the main screen although why defrost is considered an optional app equivalent to toybox or gaming, I don't know.) Random blind stabs at it weren't working for me.

So I was blind inside and outside the car, and it was alarming like crazy as I'm trying to get up to speed to merge onto a highway. In that situation, I didn't want to take my eyes off the road or my mirrors to see if the screen was bothering to tell me why the alarms were going off (why the eff can't we have the system optionally read the messages to us so we don't have to spend our time staring at a screen?)

After making it to the hotel that night, I was forum-reading and learned that it was likely the lane departure warning (I was hugging the right side of the on-ramp while trying to get the defrost functioning and take time to thoroughly shoulder check for any fast moving trucks appearing from the fog when I merged onto the highway.) I also learned there is an option for the steering wheel to vibrate, and not have the alarm. I opted for that and have been a happy camper with regard to this feature. It still goes off far too often for my liking but I, and my passengers, are spared heart attacks when it happens now*. I tend to prefer to drive at the right side of the lane on a two way highway to protect myself from on-coming vehicles drifting into my lane. At times that means my wheels will be on the shoulder side line, something my driving instructor told me was perfectly safe and not a reason to swerve madly and overcorrect into oncoming traffic.

*Bonus - if I get an alarm now, I know it will likely be something truly serious like me about to hit another vehicle, assuming there is an alarm for that and not just a 2 second message on the screen.