man what a bunch of cry babies. the newer packs are actually 94kwh. they use the new ncr18650bd cells in place of the old ncr18650pd cells. still nca chemistry. this is in prep for awd model s and model x. you may be able to upgrade at a later time but first they want to not use the full pack to be sure they are holding up as well has the pd cell which has been tested for years
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Wraithnot's VIN is 16,132. It is the same B-type battery. The 90 kW data were taken with the version 4.5 of the firmware. The 120 kW data were taken with the version 5.8 of the firmware.
Larry
islandbayy
Active Member
When I drop my car off at the nearest service center, it IS a roadtrip for me just go get home. Usually exhaust a whole pack each direction.
Yes, we are talking about different tapers.
Here is wraithnot's profile showing both 90 kW and 120 kW on the same car.
If we accept wraithnot's data we have four profiles. The initial profiles when charging at low SoC, the two horizontal lines; then the first downward sloping profile, in the big circle; and finally the greater downward sloping profile occurring at 90%-100% SoC, in the rectange. Wraighnot's data shows that the two downward sloping profiles are essentially the same for 90 and 120 kW. The meaningful differences in charging time occur when the SoC is less than about 40%.
My comments about taper started with Aviators99's (Ron's) remarks about taper. His concerns centered on getting the maximum range charge in the fastest time. Therefore, his concerns focused on the last downward sloping profile occurring at 90-100% where the time to charge takes a disproportionate amount of time to obtain those last miles that Ron needs for his very long commutes.
It is interesting to note that after just 15 minutes of charging the a 120 kW car has the same overall profile as the 90 kW car. That is because the 120 begins its first taper earlier that the 90. The 120 transitions from horizontal to downward sloping at about 75 rated miles, whereas the 90 doesn't begin essentially the same downward slope later at 100 miles. So at about 100 miles both cars are charging at about the same rate.
Larry
Not according to my data. I reworked the data according to % SOC and I'm still seeing significant differences in the 40-60% SOC region. The two A pack datasets are mine (Atascadero and Harris Ranch) and the two B pack datasets are Wraithnot's (Tejon and Quartzsite). I still see differences as large as 11 kW in the 40-60% region between the old and new taper curves. Again, my datasets were generated in Dec 2013 on FW 5.8.
Like I suggested before, I don't think we can accept wraithnot's 90 kW data as data for actual 90 kW limited cars.
What we need is data from two cars of similar age, same firmware, but different 90/120kW packs.
Fedderman
Original: 2012 Model S (85); Current: 2024 Model S
Correct - wraithnot's data is a single profile for a 'B' battery; apacheguy showed A and B taper profiles on the same graph.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
chickensevil
Active Member
Indeed I would love this information as well... because so many new questions come to mind.
If this were true, sales would cease immediately unless Tesla is installing these now.
I was specifically told to take the P85+ loaner I had on a family road trip. I received the car with 26 miles on it, I returned it with just over 1,000 after a couple of weeks.
My pack degradation is substantial (in my opinion). According to Tesla engineers:
1) It is not out of balance
2) The degradation is normal
They don't look **too** different when normalized the neanderthal way (no offense to the 3% neanderthal in me) - just resizing with transparency to align the axis values
My question is - how does the difference effectively translate to observable impact? Sorry, I've never supercharged and waiting for my X.
But are we talking a 2 minute difference to go between some lower arbitrary SOC and higher SOC? How about from 'close to zero' to 'close to 100%'?
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do you guys really believe Tesla can just snap they fingers and have Pansonic switch their whole production line over to the latest cell tech? this would be extremely dumb anyway for multiple other reasons besides the fact it is not possible. panasonic is at full capacity and adding capacity as fast as the supply chain allows. samgsung cells are still not validated
look at ford with the new all aluminum f-150. they are ramping up 2014 production becuase they will be short trucks for a while. they have to shutdown the whole line for many months to upgrade. maybe tesla should just stop shipping and have panasonic shut down the whole battery line to make all you whiners happy. too bad panasonic cant just snap their fingers and ramp up production before they switch upgrade their whole line. some real silver spoon types here threatening lawsuits. tesla is making cars as fast as they can sell them. they dont have to cater to anyone
also hint hint panasonic will be supplying ford cells for their upcoming all aluminum vehicles. all aluminum and panasonic. sound similar to anyone? telsa maybe....
look at ford with the new all aluminum f-150. they are ramping up 2014 production becuase they will be short trucks for a while. they have to shutdown the whole line for many months to upgrade. maybe tesla should just stop shipping and have panasonic shut down the whole battery line to make all you whiners happy. too bad panasonic cant just snap their fingers and ramp up production before they switch upgrade their whole line. some real silver spoon types here threatening lawsuits. tesla is making cars as fast as they can sell them. they dont have to cater to anyone
also hint hint panasonic will be supplying ford cells for their upcoming all aluminum vehicles. all aluminum and panasonic. sound similar to anyone? telsa maybe....
You cannot superimpose % SOC onto rated miles. That was the whole point of me redoing the data.
andystj
Member
My VIN is production 1834, and I have supercharged at 4 different Superchargers in Texas with a max-rate of 90kW.
I just found this thread, and it is way too long for me to catch up completely. It would be a STUPENDOUS service if a moderator or someone with a deep knowledge of this thread could create an sticky with updates or a wiki where the summary information could be found.
What I gather is that #1834 counts as "early" and that I have a hardware limitation. Is this correct? Do we have an approximate cutoff between the 120 capable and 90 capped change occured?
Can someone point to the current state of any official or unofficial word from Tesla on this issue?
It looks like the debates regarding taper-curves and practical impact are still ongoing. If there were a place to upload data-logs, I'd be happy to gather what data I can and submit it. I would note that I just use the stock software without any special tracking apps, so I would have to note the charge rate, elapsed time, SOC manually.
I won't consider myself "duped" as I thought 90kW sounded great when I bought my car. The only annoyance is that when 120kW charging was announced it certainly seemed to apply to all of us. We should have received some direct communication from Tesla if it was not going to apply to our cars.
I appreciate any feedback to a newbie for this thread.
Andy
I just found this thread, and it is way too long for me to catch up completely. It would be a STUPENDOUS service if a moderator or someone with a deep knowledge of this thread could create an sticky with updates or a wiki where the summary information could be found.
What I gather is that #1834 counts as "early" and that I have a hardware limitation. Is this correct? Do we have an approximate cutoff between the 120 capable and 90 capped change occured?
Can someone point to the current state of any official or unofficial word from Tesla on this issue?
It looks like the debates regarding taper-curves and practical impact are still ongoing. If there were a place to upload data-logs, I'd be happy to gather what data I can and submit it. I would note that I just use the stock software without any special tracking apps, so I would have to note the charge rate, elapsed time, SOC manually.
I won't consider myself "duped" as I thought 90kW sounded great when I bought my car. The only annoyance is that when 120kW charging was announced it certainly seemed to apply to all of us. We should have received some direct communication from Tesla if it was not going to apply to our cars.
I appreciate any feedback to a newbie for this thread.
Andy
ModelS1079
Member
Andy, My car rolled off the line 11 after yours (number 1845) - I too would love an update as to where this issue is at, is there remedy. So to all - can we get a general summary of 1. What we know to be true at the point and 2. What we need to know as it still remains speculation. Many thanks for your time with this (whoever has it in her/him to respond!).
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