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Ontario EV Rebates Cancelled July 11, 2018

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Our unemployment rate has never been lower. During recessions, you cut taxes. In good times, you’re suppose to raise them

I'm not sure of the point. My point is that reducing corp taxes creates jobs. It does... and that's exactly why you cut them in recessions.

Somewhat of a side point... unemployment is low, but that's only half of the picture. 100 guys working at Walmart or Timmies is not the same as 100 guys working at a high technology manufacturing operation.
 
I'm not sure of the point. My point is that reducing corp taxes creates jobs. It does... and that's exactly why you cut them in recessions.

Somewhat of a side point... unemployment is low, but that's only half of the picture. 100 guys working at Walmart or Timmies is not the same as 100 guys working at a high technology manufacturing operation.
And that is why you provide incentives for new green tech. Make it more appealing to do high tech work.. will pay for itself in the future.
 
OK thanks for clarifying. So most likely the base model AWD would qualify (if it shows up on MTO.gov).

Correct
I just read the requirements.

"Individuals and organizations who have purchased either a new or used EV and registered and plated that vehicle in Ontario can apply for the charging station rebate".

Thanks for the reminder.

If EVCIP gets cancelled, my hope is that there is a grandfathered period (similar to what we're hoping for with EVHIP). This gives new owners an opportunity to buy and install home chargers with a bit of an incentive.
 
And that is why you provide incentives for new green tech. Make it more appealing to do high tech work.. will pay for itself in the future.

Unfortunately the government has always stunk in picking winners. We don't need government programs (aka corporate welfare), except in very rare circumstances. Canadians are smart, creative and motivated. Give them a good business environment and they will build the industries all by themselves.
 
Unfortunately the government has always stunk in picking winners. We don't need government programs (aka corporate welfare), except in very rare circumstances. Canadians are smart, creative and motivated. Give them a good business environment and they will build the industries all by themselves.

I for one, am not asking the Gov't to pick winners. By providing rebates, the end user chooses products and services and the free market, driven by demand will foster growth where appropriate. A good business environment shouldn't be at the cost of negative impacts to the planet. They are incentives. They aren't hand-outs. Look at GreenON. How many people would have gone out and bought triple pane windows without the incentive? Not many. The spirit of these programs is to induce behavioral change for the perceived betterment of society.

It's about GHG reduction which needs incentives in many industries to effect change. Ignoring the root issues is just passing the problems on to the next generation.

Anyone can cut programs. What's Ford's PLAN?
 
I for one, am not asking the Gov't to pick winners. By providing rebates, the end user chooses products and services and the free market, driven by demand will foster growth where appropriate. A good business environment shouldn't be at the cost of negative impacts to the planet. They are incentives. They aren't hand-outs. Look at GreenON. How many people would have gone out and bought triple pane windows without the incentive? Not many. The spirit of these programs is to induce behavioral change for the perceived betterment of society.

It's about GHG reduction which needs incentives in many industries to effect change. Ignoring the root issues is just passing the problems on to the next generation.

Anyone can cut programs. What's Ford's PLAN?
And that's why cap and trade was so good. It left it to the market to find ways to reduce emissions and efficiencies.
 
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The current rebate. My point is the rebate makes a difference with lower prices than say with S or X.

Not sure why. If I'm $14k short on my budget for and S or X, I'll buy a competitive ICE. If I'm $14k short on my budget for a 3, I'll also buy a competitive ICE. Why would it make a difference on lower priced cars and not on higher priced ones? Depends on one's personal financial situation. Not everyone who buys an S or an X has unlimited disposable income.
 
Ontario's new Minister of Transportation (John Y.) doesn't appear to be a fan of the carbon tax. I wonder what his views on EHVIP are?

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Not sure why. If I'm $14k short on my budget for and S or X, I'll buy a competitive ICE. If I'm $14k short on my budget for a 3, I'll also buy a competitive ICE. Why would it make a difference on lower priced cars and not on higher priced ones? Depends on one's personal financial situation. Not everyone who buys an S or an X has unlimited disposable income.
I don’t know what you are talking about.
 
You said, and I quote:



I am saying it absolutely does makes the same difference whether someone is buying an S/X or a lower priced car.

I don't know about that. People buying at a price range of $100K will on average have a higher income than people buying at a $50K range. $14K is a higher percentage of one's income when you make less. $14K for somebody on a low salary makes the difference between being able to pay the mortgage for some time vs $14k going towards a new kitchen or hot tub for people with a higher income.
 
You said, and I quote:



I am saying it absolutely does makes the same difference whether someone is buying an S/X or a lower priced car.


I Think the the size of the rebate as a percentage of the cost of a car makes a big difference. Of course absolute dollars makes a difference, but not as much.

Anecdotaly Tesla reps have said the incentives on S and X help but they would still sell a lot. ( in Canada and US.) in Denmark where the incentive was almost double the cost of the car, sales were good until the incentive went away.
 
I for one, am not asking the Gov't to pick winners. By providing rebates, the end user chooses products and services and the free market, driven by demand will foster growth where appropriate. A good business environment shouldn't be at the cost of negative impacts to the planet. They are incentives. They aren't hand-outs. Look at GreenON. How many people would have gone out and bought triple pane windows without the incentive? Not many. The spirit of these programs is to induce behavioral change for the perceived betterment of society.

It's about GHG reduction which needs incentives in many industries to effect change. Ignoring the root issues is just passing the problems on to the next generation.

Anyone can cut programs. What's Ford's PLAN?

Rebates are just a form of picking winners and a way of buying votes. A revenue neutral carbon tax would drive spending to those items that most efficiently reduce carbon.

Unfortunately that wasn't on offer by anybody.
 
I don't know about that. People buying at a price range of $100K will on average have a higher income than people buying at a $50K range. $14K is a higher percentage of one's income when you make less. $14K for somebody on a low salary makes the difference between being able to pay the mortgage for some time vs $14k going towards a new kitchen or hot tub for people with a higher income.

Well, I have to disagree. You simply can't generalize that all people buying a Model S/X are independently wealthy. For a lot, and I include myself in this category, the $14,000 rebate was the basis of a go/no-go decision.

And your argument misses the whole point of the incentive: to provide money to make up the difference between an EV and whatever ICE they were considering in it's place. If a Leaf purchase displaces at Sentra, what is wrong with a Model X displacing a Range Rover when the whole point is carbon reduction through higher EV sales. It's not meant to be some sort of social equity program. It has nothing to do with "rich vs. poor". Your argument would also seem to suggest a "rich" person should not get any rebate if they decide to buy a less expensive EV either.

I will say this, however. The program was very poor at measuring actual effectiveness. I was heavily involved in the saveONenergy programs run by the electric utilities a few years ago. We did all kinds of effectiveness measurement including calculating the "free ridership" levels each program saw. (Free ridership is the percentage of those taking advantage of a program who would have made the same decision without the incentive anyway). You will never get free ridership to zero, but until it is actually measured and evaluated, I don't know how anyone can say one class of car "needs" the rebate while another doesn't. For all we know, free ridership levels may actually be higher with less expensive cars. Results are often counter-intuitive.
 
...the whole point of the incentive: to provide money to make up the difference between an EV and whatever ICE they were considering in it's place. If a Leaf purchase displaces at Sentra, what is wrong with a Model X displacing a Range Rover when the whole point is carbon reduction through higher EV sales. It's not meant to be some sort of social equity program. It has nothing to do with "rich vs. poor". Your argument would also seem to suggest a "rich" person should not get any rebate if they decide to buy a less expensive EV either.

I will say this, however. The program was very poor at measuring actual effectiveness. I was heavily involved in the saveONenergy programs run by the electric utilities a few years ago. We did all kinds of effectiveness measurement including calculating the "free ridership" levels each program saw. (Free ridership is the percentage of those taking advantage of a program who would have made the same decision without the incentive anyway). You will never get free ridership to zero, but until it is actually measured and evaluated, I don't know how anyone can say one class of car "needs" the rebate while another doesn't. For all we know, free ridership levels may actually be higher with less expensive cars. Results are often counter-intuitive.

These programs are theoretically designed to benefit the environment by reducing fossil fuel use and reducing pollutant emissions. The most beneficial targets are those that address the heaviest users and most polluting ones. That suggests busses, commercial vehicles, taxis, heavy-using municipal users such as police cars. Some cities in Europe and China have been doing that successfully, led by Shenzen, more recently by German, Italian, Spanish and other cities.

As much as I like the idea of incentives for personal vehicles (I absolutely claimed my P85D benefits) none of those carry the benefits of eliminating/minimising diesels and have use ICE vehicles. Sadly, more logically based incentives/penalties rarely have carried the political will to be executed. We in North America (I include all three major nations) are not adept in forming logical and consistent national policy. We are grossly generous in some political units (e.g. BC free EV charging) and grow weary quite quickly if they cost too much money (e.g. GA and ON rebates) while a change of government invariably results in a sudden reversal of prior policy. (e.g. ON right now, US right now) which at their best are temporary (South Australia housing solar panel cessation followed by a quick reversal when the old way proved too expensive).

Luckily for the planet the EU and China are both moving rapidly to embrace greater efficiency and lower pollution. If we are all very, very lucky the Trumps and Fords of the world will quickly be removed. I suspect we are not very, very lucky.

In the meantime nobody gains by suggesting that any country, province or state has a monopoly on gross stupidity and bad policy. Sadly, the world has plenty of that.

That said, however imperfect, the BC model I respect. Even when planning to cut some freebies, they do manage to invite public participation:
B.C. Utilities Commission seeks input on electric vehicle charging stations future | CBC News

Disclaimer: I admit that I am a participant in all this from a distance. As a mostly Brazil resident and citizen I am uniquely ill-positioned to opine, since we get every item wrong here. OTOH, I was by birth both US and Canadian, so I offer my unqualified opinions anyway.
 
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Rebates are just a form of picking winners and a way of buying votes. A revenue neutral carbon tax would drive spending to those items that most efficiently reduce carbon.

Unfortunately that wasn't on offer by anybody.

I don't disagree on the carbon tax but I think incentives work well and allow you to target sectors that have the greatest impact in a short period of time and are relatively easy to deploy and manage. It didn't buy my vote and I haven't done a survey to measure the degree to which it bought others but I would suspect (and hope) that only a handful would actually change their vote based on a rebate.

Regardless, it's looking like we'll have neither till the feds step in. I'm ok with anything that works though buying a vehicle that's eligible for rebates shouldn't be an experience akin to being in a casino.