Ontario EV Rebates Cancelled July 11, 2018

[Struja]

If the goal of any legislation has a specific purpose, you shouldn't lose focus of the goal because of issues like class warfare.

So, for example in the rebate debate... the goal of the legislation was to "increase EV ownership".

Now, I am not going to debate the effectiveness of the program because that is an entirely different debate, but if we are REALLY serious about lowering automotive emissions, then issues of wealth and earnings should not come into the equation.

As I see it now, the way our political parties are structured, there will be no real appetite in this province to further incentivize EV purchasing.

Many Conservatives don't believe climate change is real, therefor the need to EV's is overstated. They also buy into the myth that EV's are only slightly better than ICE cars for overall environmental impact.

NDP and Libs can't be seen as doing anything for anyone that is perceived as anything more than middle class. So, giving green incentives to the "wealthy" is bad, environment be damned. I was contemplating sending Mike Schreiner an email on the subject and see what he says.

As much as some may not like it... I REFUSED to buy my Tesla when the rebate went from $8,500 to $3,000. I waited until it came to $14k and I bought mine immediately. As much as some on the left would love to say I am in the top 1%, I am not. I wanted a green car that could practically fulfill the needs of my job and my family. For our family (at least) ,the rebate worked exactly as intended.

 

[mknox]

As long as it is for EV's under $50,000.00 only.

Why only under $50K? Currently the Ontario program caps at $75K. Notwithstanding the fact that the Ontario program is coming to an end, why on earth put restrictions on the number of new ICE cars you can convert to EVs?

 

[Duckjybe]

Incentives do work and I also agree they should not be based on class when the specific goal of the program is carbon emissions reduction. The wealthiest of people with multiple cars and multiple houses burn more than their fair share of carbon and should be a major focus of any carbon reduction program. Just because someone has extra money doesn't mean they will buy a more expensive luxury EV over a luxury ICE. After buying our Model S we wanted to replace our Ford Expedition with the Model X but the pricing was crazy and the incentive went from $8500 to $3K and I just could not stomach the cost and delayed the purchase for a year. I eventually pulled the trigger because I felt I owed it to the environment, and I could afford it but I was on the fence at that price point for a long time. Meaningful incentives for luxury cars for such people who are on the fence do work. Apparently a reduction of $10K on the price of a car doubles the addressable market. Also, if you tallied up all the buyers of EV's under $75K, which is a much larger market than EV's over $75K, I argue you would find the same percentage or more that would have purchased the EV anyways without the incentive simply because it is more affordable. This would mean just as many would have bought a less than $75K EV without an incentive compared to a vehicle over $75K. So no matter the price point, incentive dollars will be wasted but one has to look at the big picture: the cost of the program versus the carbon emissions reduction goal. To that end I believe the EV incentives for all zero emissions vehicles are justifiable.

The canceling of the Cap and Trade by Doug Ford could be the Conservative's gas plant scandal and a major waste of tax dollars.

 

[mknox]

Also, if you tallied up all the buyers of EV's under $75K, which is a much larger market than EV's over $75K, I argue you would find the same percentage or more that would have purchased the EV anyways without the incentive simply because it is more affordable. This would mean just as many would have bought a less than $75K EV without an incentive compared to a vehicle over $75K.

That's the point I have been trying to make... I think you've just summed it up better!

 

[adaptabl]

Tax payers do not need to give the wealthy tax incentives. Those buying a car over $50,000.00 do not need tax incentives. The public has been vocal on this and that is why the Liberals put the cap on in Ontario. Let's hope they do the same in Ottawa.

If not $50,000.00 MSRP, maybe $75,000 max final price.

 

[Struja]

Tax payers do not need to give the wealthy tax incentives. Those buying a car over $50,000.00 do not need tax incentives. The public has been vocal on this and that is why the Liberals put the cap on in Ontario. Let's hope they do the same in Ottawa.

If not $50,000.00 MSRP, maybe $75,000 max final price.

Again, you seem to be missing the point. The issues regarding tax incentives for the wealthy is a political issue for which you are entitled to your opinion, of which, I am sure you have many who would agree with you. However, that really isn't what is at issue when you are talking about EVs.

Simply answer this one question... what is the point of the EV rebate?

If your answer is... "to encourage more EV ownership", then the debate on wealth shouldn't come into play.

Let me put it another way to you (with a purely hypothetical and fictional premise).

If I showed you that keeping the EV rebate at 14k would put 10,000 more EV's on the road, 50% of which came from the "wealthy" (ie: cars more than 75k), is that a good outcome for the environment?

I think most would think it was a good outcome.

If you believe that outcome doesn't justify the rebate to the wealthy, tha simply means you value "no tax incentives to the wealthy" as more important than the "defence of the environment". Again, not debating which is more important, just framing the argument in a logical and congruent way.

 

[Duckjybe]

Tax payers do not need to give the wealthy tax incentives. Those buying a car over $50,000.00 do not need tax incentives. The public has been vocal on this and that is why the Liberals put the cap on in Ontario. Let's hope they do the same in Ottawa.

If not $50,000.00 MSRP, maybe $75,000 max final price.

Tax payer is not funding EV incentives, polluters are through Cap and Trade auction proceeds.

So you are ok with majority of cars over 75K continuing to burn gas while others go EV? Climate change is affecting poor and middle class the most. These arguments will be lost on you unless you understand the science of climate change and the time critical nature of getting off fossil fuels ASAP across all of society including wealthy.

 

[Munch]

Anyone recently ordered a charger from Tesla online? Wondering how long it may take to get it. I should have ordered one weeks ago, but just decided now and hoping it gets here before any changes to the charger rebate.

 

[mknox]

Tax payers do not need to give the wealthy tax incentives. Those buying a car over $50,000.00 do not need tax incentives. The public has been vocal on this and that is why the Liberals put the cap on in Ontario. Let's hope they do the same in Ottawa.

This makes no sense. What do you mean by "wealthy"? There are lots of "average" people who cannot afford any new car, let alone a car costing $30,000. They may be making a decent income but have a big mortgage, are putting kids through school or whatever. To them, anyone who can afford a $30,000 car are "rich" and do not need a hand-out. You are drawing an arbitrary line based on what seems to be an assumption that there is a hard and fast line between "rich" and "poor".

But again, this is not supposed to be some sort of social equity program like the Ontario Energy Credit or other forms of assistance for people of lower means. It was put in place SOLELY for the purpose of incentivizing someone to purchase an EV instead of an ICE in whatever cost bracket they are shopping in.

The Liberals put the $75k cap in place because of sensational and erroneous stories in the press, many of which referred to ANY electric vehicles as "toys for the rich". Tesla, being popular, were particular hard hit by some of these stories.It was not because the public was vocal. It was meant to be a preemptive action before the provincial election to silence those who would make those false claims.

I, for one, would rather see zero incentive than some pandering, politicized version that does nothing but address fake news stories and false assumptions about what the goals of the program are.

 

[Struja]

As an aside and not really relevant to the subject about the EV rebate but I think this "tax incentives to the wealthy" is a knee jerk reaction to USA politics. The US tax code is full of loopholes for the ultra-wealthy. Heck, I have never been ultra-wealthy but even I enjoyed huge tax benefits from crafty accounting in my 14 years down south.

However, there are almost no such benefits in the Canadian tax code (absent off shore hiding of money), which may or may not be legal. Truth be told, most Canadians, even the ultra wealthy pay a lot in taxes.

During the election, I did get a kick out of Andrea Horwath's line about "asking" the wealthiest to pay more. Last time a check, nobody ever "asked" me if I wanted to pay more. Seems a lot mroe like "telling" me to pay more.

 

[Kpfeif]

Anyone recently ordered a charger from Tesla online? Wondering how long it may take to get it. I should have ordered one weeks ago, but just decided now and hoping it gets here before any changes to the charger rebate.

I ordered mine and got it within a week I believe, was fairly quick. Just waiting to get mine installed now to send in all the forms.

 

[Duckjybe]

And the other problem with limiting incentives for cars under a certain price is there is nothing stopping a wealthy person from buying one. So according to the critics, if a wealthy person buys a $30K EV (or 2) and gets $14K it’s ok? But if they buy one over $75K it’s not ok and that’s bad for the taxpayer?

 

[adaptabl]

Tax payer is not funding EV incentives, polluters are through Cap and Trade auction proceeds.

So you are ok with majority of cars over 75K continuing to burn gas while others go EV? Climate change is affecting poor and middle class the most. These arguments will be lost on you unless you understand the science of climate change and the time critical nature of getting off fossil fuels ASAP across all of society including wealthy.

ICE cars won't be paying for it in Ontario very soon. Doug Ford is bringing back to MPP's to kill cap and trade in Ontario. Then he will take the feds to court to stop them from trying to impose it in Ontario. It is only a short window he has to stall it as next fall the Liberals will most likely be out in Ottawa and the whole national cap and trade will be gone.

 

[adaptabl]

And the other problem with limiting incentives for cars under a certain price is there is nothing stopping a wealthy person from buying one. So according to the critics, if a wealthy person buys a $30K EV (or 2) and gets $14K it’s ok? But if they buy one over $75K it’s not ok and that’s bad for the taxpayer?

I do think that is OK. It encourages the production of affordable EV cars that will in turn put more on the road.

 

[Duckjybe]

ICE cars won't be paying for it in Ontario very soon. Doug Ford is bringing back to MPP's to kill cap and trade in Ontario. Then he will take the feds to court to stop them from trying to impose it in Ontario. It is only a short window he has to stall it as next fall the Liberals will most likely be out in Ottawa and the whole national cap and trade will be gone.

And since you seem very happy about that, you can’t possibly comprehend the extent of the impact of man-made climate change on our kids and their future.

 

[Duckjybe]

I do think that is OK. It encourages the production of affordable EV cars that will in turn put more on the road.

And supporting long range vehicles that for the time being are over $75K supports innovation and drives down costs for those more practical cars. Short range 200km cheaper EV’s don’t fit everyone’s needs. So incentivize all zero emissions cars in the name of progress.

 

[Struja]

And the other problem with limiting incentives for cars under a certain price is there is nothing stopping a wealthy person from buying one. So according to the critics, if a wealthy person buys a $30K EV (or 2) and gets $14K it’s ok? But if they buy one over $75K it’s not ok and that’s bad for the taxpayer?

You really hit it on the head with this one.

This essentially makes the opposing argument as follows:

"I don't want the people I perceive as wealthy to be subsidized from buying long range electric vehicles if those vehicles are what I perceive to be fancy".

I am sure many Model S owners are like me...

I am in my 40's. I have a wife and two kids. I live in Toronto and have a large mortgage. I work (a lot). I pay taxes (a lot). Our family tries to be environmentally conscious. I needed/wanted an EV that fit my lifestyle (with daily driving which exceeds 250km a day most days). We are NOT the top 1%.

 

[Darthbenji]

Not sure if this was posted already. Watch 4:08-5:00

 

[Tony_YYZ]

Not sure if this was posted already. Watch 4:08-5:00

I watched the whole thing. It was pretty infuriating to watch. He just kept saying the same three things over and over again to every question asked even if it wasn't relevant. He said a lot without saying anything at all. I keep wondering what his plan is for what he is setting out to do but he hasn't provided anything worth of note yet.

 

[mknox]

I am in my 40's. I have a wife and two kids. I live in Toronto and have a large mortgage. I work (a lot). I pay taxes (a lot). Our family tries to be environmentally conscious. I needed/wanted an EV that fit my lifestyle (with daily driving which exceeds 250km a day most days). We are NOT the top 1%.

I think a lot of Model S/X buyers, especially early ones, fit into this description. And I think for many, it was probably the most expensive car, by a lot, that they had ever purchased. The incentive made it possible.