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Ontario EV Rebates Cancelled July 11, 2018

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I was looking at rates yesterday and on the Tesla website saw only 4.6% @ 96 months for the Model 3 but for the X/S it was 3.49% for anywhere between 36 and 72 months or 3.99 for 84-96 months. I presume that's all current/valid but one never knows...

My HELOC is currently 3.95% so 6yrs at 3.49 is looking good on an X/S as that would be locked in and interest rates are on the rise. Though the HELOC has a lot more flexibility and if I was in a position to pay it off sooner, advantage would go to it.

If the feds bring out something that's not capped to the cost of the EV, I might splurge for a MX but not till the spring



Was the 4.4% what the Tesla website reflected at the time or did you go elsewhere for that rate?
Once you apply via Tesla they send you an offer based on the term you requested and the best approval. RBC offered the 4.4 at 96 months, the SA said scotia was a higher rate.

Edit: it’s also a fixed rate, which in the current environment of interest rate increases is a good thing in my mind. It’s not the worst rate, but it certainly not a great deal either.
 
As others have pointed out there are likely conditions to prevent this from happening easily (required time to keep car plated and insured in BC, transfer taxes, shipping costs). By the time you factor all those things in I can't see it being worth it...you'll end up with the car in a year and having saved maybe a few thousand...or likely end up paying more if you have to pay hey twice.

At the very least, with all that hassle just wait for SR to come out and that will save you more than the rebate anyway and lost if hassle.

In addition to what others have mentioned, you will find that one of the program regulations is:

7. Be available for follow-up inspection if requested by NCDABC, BC Ministry of Energy and Mines or the BC Ministry of Energy and Mines’s designee for the purposes of program oversight and accountability.

That could prove a little tricky :)
 
Once you apply via Tesla they send you an offer based on the term you requested and the best approval. RBC offered the 4.4 at 96 months, the SA said scotia was a higher rate.

Edit: it’s also a fixed rate, which in the current environment of interest rate increases is a good thing in my mind. It’s not the worst rate, but it certainly not a great deal either.
Please take this conversation to a more appropriate forum or off line
 
Having only 35ish posts over a month on half a dozen topics, I wouldn't presume to attempt to moderate a thread which has had many twisty turn kind of offshoots.
Overall this has been quite interesting and far reaching discussion with many sub plots and several interesting viewpoints expressed.

Carry on with any off topic comments, not a worry.

Nice to see @Matt-CYTR to get his M3 and share some info, even if TECHNICALLY off topic, who cares.

If this is the only thread someone comments on in the whopping 4 days as a "member", and half of the comments have been attempts to moderate, maybe a chill pill is in order.
 
Having only 35ish posts over a month on half a dozen topics, I wouldn't presume to attempt to moderate a thread which has had many twisty turn kind of offshoots.
Overall this has been quite interesting and far reaching discussion with many sub plots and several interesting viewpoints expressed.

Carry on with any off topic comments, not a worry.

Nice to see @Matt-CYTR to get his M3 and share some info, even if TECHNICALLY off topic, who cares.

If this is the only thread someone comments on in the whopping 4 days as a "member", and half of the comments have been attempts to moderate, maybe a chill pill is in order.
Keep the personal attacks to yourself
 
Once you apply via Tesla they send you an offer based on the term you requested and the best approval. RBC offered the 4.4 at 96 months, the SA said scotia was a higher rate.

Edit: it’s also a fixed rate, which in the current environment of interest rate increases is a good thing in my mind. It’s not the worst rate, but it certainly not a great deal either.

Right now you could probably find a HELOC at prime (3.70%), if you have the equity to spare. That’s 3 rate increases before you’re paying more on the variable. Personally, and as someone who works in finance, I don’t see us getting that high or staying at that height for any real length of time; Market is showing signs of being in the very late stages of a bull run and I would expect a recession in the next 24-36 months.

I know it’s conjecture, but those are my thoughts.
 
In addition to what others have mentioned, you will find that one of the program regulations is:

7. Be available for follow-up inspection if requested by NCDABC, BC Ministry of Energy and Mines or the BC Ministry of Energy and Mines’s designee for the purposes of program oversight and accountability.

That could prove a little tricky :)

Yeah I somewhat agree with it but I never heard of any regulations in terms of having to keep a new car for certain period of time. The only time I heard is years ago when I was looking to buy a car from the states when the Canadian dollar was at par with the states. I believe they have rules saying u have to keep car for half a year or something. It's not as easy as ppl think. You need to find someone u really trust to do this.
 
Yeah I somewhat agree with it but I never heard of any regulations in terms of having to keep a new car for certain period of time. The only time I heard is years ago when I was looking to buy a car from the states when the Canadian dollar was at par with the states. I believe they have rules saying u have to keep car for half a year or something. It's not as easy as ppl think. You need to find someone u really trust to do this.

This situation is exclusive to the EV rebates, nothing stopping anyone from selling a car earlier, but then you would be forced to pay back the rebate. The Ontario rebate before cancellation required you to keep the car plated and insured for 1 year after purchase. My wife just got a letter a month or so ago from the Ontario government confirming that she now met all conditions and the rebate for her Bolt was clear and free (it was point of sale, but they would retract the rebate if you sold the car within a year).
 
We're not going to see any energy incentives in Ontario for at least the next 4 years:


Ford this week shoved aside the provincial AG and named his own “commission of inquiry” into government finances headed by former BC Premier Gordon Campbell.

Gordon Campbell, as Premier, knew of the corrupting consequences of BC political donations and did nothing to stop it. He rewarded the people with big money, like car dealers who hate those far too reliable Electric Vehicles, to create public policies and direct government employees daily decision making.

Here from the Globe Mail. KATHY TOMLINSON, VANCOUVER, PUBLISHED MARCH 3, 2017:

“They all swim in the same circles,” said Martyn Brown, who learned how politics works as chief of staff to former Liberal premier Gordon Campbell. Mr. Brown is now a columnist who has criticized the party’s fundraising system.”

“While he was in office, Mr. Heed said, representatives of the New Car Dealers Association – one of the B.C. Liberals’ top donors at the time – were sent to see him by Deputy Premier Rich Coleman, who is heavily involved in party fundraising. When they met in his office, Mr. Heed said, the group demanded he fire the chair of the Motor Vehicle Sales Authority, a government-backed consumer protection agency, because he was taking the industry to task for misleading advertising.

“He wanted to hold them to account. And they wanted him removed. I had the authority to do that. And I refused to,” Mr. Heed said. “They feel they have influence. They had no problems dropping Rich Coleman’s name several times.”

“The car dealers’ group has given the B.C. Liberals more than half a million dollars since 2011. On top of that, the group’s office manager, Shakira Maqbool, has given $25,805 in 10 donations, under her own name, since 2013.”

The reason why Ford is naming his own commission is that this process is not about accounting or even the long-term structure of government finances. It’s about politics and the Ford government’s need to prepare the public for swinging cuts in spending, even though he promised just the opposite. Remember the Tory election campaign. Lower taxes, Lower deficits. And improved services. All through the magic of painless “efficiencies.” Electioneering is easy. Governing a lot less so.

So far, Ford’s “efficiencies” have only added substantial red numbers to the budget. The cancellation of cap-and-trade and the elimination of 758 renewable energy projects are supposed to be about savings but will probably end up costing billions to the treasury as lawyers go after the province for breach of contract.

The abrupt cancellation of the energy projects shows how politics is already trumping sound financial management in the Ford government. While the energy program was probably ill-conceived, wouldn’t it make more sense to do a line-by-line analysis of every project and decide which ones can be renegotiated or delayed at less cost to the treasury than simply a blanket cancellation of every project? But that would take time and make for a less sexy headline.

What Ford is looking to do is lay the groundwork for a revised 2018-19 budget deficit that will be closer to $15-billion than the original $6.7-billion predicted in the spring, followed by a series of cuts. An inflated budget number this year will also make it easier to show progress in the future.
 
Right now you could probably find a HELOC at prime (3.70%), if you have the equity to spare. That’s 3 rate increases before you’re paying more on the variable. Personally, and as someone who works in finance, I don’t see us getting that high or staying at that height for any real length of time; Market is showing signs of being in the very late stages of a bull run and I would expect a recession in the next 24-36 months.

I know it’s conjecture, but those are my thoughts.
Yeah I was thinking that as well, my mortgage is up for renewal next year so might try that and pay off the loan. I’ll see where interest rates go, for now it’s good enough for me, but long term I’ll be looking for better options.
 
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Having only 35ish posts over a month on half a dozen topics, I wouldn't presume to attempt to moderate a thread which has had many twisty turn kind of offshoots.
Overall this has been quite interesting and far reaching discussion with many sub plots and several interesting viewpoints expressed.

Carry on with any off topic comments, not a worry.

Nice to see @Matt-CYTR to get his M3 and share some info, even if TECHNICALLY off topic, who cares.

If this is the only thread someone comments on in the whopping 4 days as a "member", and half of the comments have been attempts to moderate, maybe a chill pill is in order.
Thanks @NoBeard, I totally understand that this thread goes off topic, but it’s really become a conversation about how we are all going to proceed without the rebate, hence why I wanted to share my experience, so in a round about way I think it’s somewhat relevant.
 
As an FYI, 9 days after cancelling my order over the phone, I see this in my account tonight (wasn't there a few hours ago).

upload_2018-7-22_19-20-42.png

I was kinda hoping for something more dramatic, like a GIF of my build receding into the distance...and slowly replaced by this:

GMAC3473-1024x813.jpg
 
A cringe worthy 4.4 % but I needed to stretch this out to 96 months.

96 months on a car loan, really. No one should ever extend that far out. If you need to do that you really should not be buying the car. Maximum of 48 months. Any further and you will always be upside down on your loan. You can easily be in a position where major repairs exceed the value of the car and you will still have a loan to pay. I would suggest you look further into this before you get yourself in trouble.
 
Generally speaking, paying 20% down on a 60 month term will prevent from being upside down however with this particular vehicle, the anticipated energy savings and potential lower TCO and high resale value may prove highly beneficial over that 96 month period and prevent being upside down, esp if you are using the energy savings to pay down the loan.

Perhaps he is intending on putting more down yet needs to keep payments low but is anticipating future income and/or cash influxes that allow it to actually be paid off much sooner.

Only if you are taking on a 96 month loan for the entire cost or very near that and have no prospects of your cash flow increasing over that time, would you be in trouble...and even then, if someone wants the vehicle that badly and are willing to take the risk, that's their choice.

Some people do keep their vehicles that long though it's becoming more infrequent as mfg and technology differentiate model years more dramatically than in the past. It's anticipated the model 3 will retain 50% of it's cost after 160k km = 17.7k km per year over 9 years.

The biggest risk is out of warranty repairs but presuming nothing major there, a model 3, more than most any other vehicle available, holds up to a 96 month term fairly well. Some in sales have been known to lease even a model X and drive it for free due to the cost difference in their high energy use - between it and their previous gas-guzzling SUV (size required for their job).

Obviously it's never a good idea to have a loan that's greater in value than what it was used for but to say "no one should ever extend that far out" simply doesn't take into account the nuances of this particular situation - that of buying a model 3 EV - as well as details about the buyer that you may not appreciate.




screen-shot-2017-08-21-at-10-03-09-pm.png
 
Generally speaking, paying 20% down on a 60 month term will prevent from being upside down however with this particular vehicle, the anticipated energy savings and potential lower TCO and high resale value may prove highly beneficial over that 96 month period and prevent being upside down, esp if you are using the energy savings to pay down the loan.

Perhaps he is intending on putting more down yet needs to keep payments low but is anticipating future income and/or cash influxes that allow it to actually be paid off much sooner.

Only if you are taking on a 96 month loan for the entire cost or very near that and have no prospects of your cash flow increasing over that time, would you be in trouble...and even then, if someone wants the vehicle that badly and are willing to take the risk, that's their choice.

Some people do keep their vehicles that long though it's becoming more infrequent as mfg and technology differentiate model years more dramatically than in the past. It's anticipated the model 3 will retain 50% of it's cost after 160k km = 17.7k km per year over 9 years.

The biggest risk is out of warranty repairs but presuming nothing major there, a model 3, more than most any other vehicle available, holds up to a 96 month term fairly well. Some in sales have been known to lease even a model X and drive it for free due to the cost difference in their high energy use - between it and their previous gas-guzzling SUV (size required for their job).

Obviously it's never a good idea to have a loan that's greater in value than what it was used for but to say "no one should ever extend that far out" simply doesn't take into account the nuances of this particular situation - that of buying a model 3 EV - as well as details about the buyer that you may not appreciate.




screen-shot-2017-08-21-at-10-03-09-pm.png
Well said
 
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This situation is exclusive to the EV rebates, nothing stopping anyone from selling a car earlier, but then you would be forced to pay back the rebate. The Ontario rebate before cancellation required you to keep the car plated and insured for 1 year after purchase. My wife just got a letter a month or so ago from the Ontario government confirming that she now met all conditions and the rebate for her Bolt was clear and free (it was point of sale, but they would retract the rebate if you sold the car within a year).

Out of curiosity, do the terms of the Ontario rebate still apply after the program is cancelled? Do those of us who got the rebate still have to keep the car for a year? Will there be any program staff around to check?