Indeed, we just sold a 13 year old A4 and a 10 year old Town & Country to make way for a new Subaru Forester (couldn't wait any longer for the X). I expect to hold the S for 10 years; resale is going to be horrible, though.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Indeed, we just sold a 13 year old A4 and a 10 year old Town & Country to make way for a new Subaru Forester (couldn't wait any longer for the X). I expect to hold the S for 10 years; resale is going to be horrible, though.
My hope is that as the company matures we'll see reasonable measures put into place for owners and independent shops to access parts, and that the reason that we haven't yet is just because the company is worrying about other things.
I also hope that in the interim we see accommodations made for out of warranty owners (though obviously dealing with these issues case by case is not ideal from either the company or the customer perspective).
But I do think owners should keep up the pressure on this point.
We all know part of the issue of self servicing is having 400 volts running around in the car which is way beyond lethal. I would imagine that they could have any purchaser of parts sign a waver/disclaimer before anything was sold to them. I would expect the same waver would be used even for a screw (as one could extrapolate that selling the screw was giving permission to self service).
But cars are becoming more dealer only serviced all the time. For example we have a 2011 BMW. When it's time to change the (plain old 12 volt) battery it needs to be registered to the car as the charging profile is altered as the battery ages. This can only be done using the dealers computer, it cannot be done yourself (without specialized expensive tools).
But cars are becoming more dealer only serviced all the time. For example we have a 2011 BMW. When it's time to change the (plain old 12 volt) battery it needs to be registered to the car as the charging profile is altered as the battery ages. This can only be done using the dealers computer, it cannot be done yourself (without specialized expensive tools).
islandbayy
Active Member
The Prius has 300+ V running through it, and anyone has been able to work on those since the start.
And as you say with the BMW, can cannot be done yourself, WITHOUT SPECIALIZED EXPENSIVE TOOLS... BUT, those tools ARE available if your willing to pony up the cash. The only specialized tool the Model S Really needs so far, from my observations, is a laptop and a special connection cable, and the Tesla Software. Everything else is fairly off the shelf (From my observations).
Please be careful what sort of misinformation you spread. It's not a specific voltage that kills you, it's the amount of current flowing.
It takes very little current through the correct path in your body to kill you. Small fractions of an amp (100mA or even less) across your heart can be lethal.
And 400V is more than plenty to overcome your body's electrical resistance to allow that much current to flow. As a matter of fact even less than standard 110V is enough.
See: Ohio University's Fatal Current or OSHA's Web Page on the matter before you hand out potentially deadly advice.
SteveS0353
Member
Not to be pedantic, but lethal is a binary term, and there aren't degrees of lethal. As you point out, it's the current that's important, and unfortunately, the human heart is rather susceptible to 50 / 60 Hz current as opposed to DC.
Working on cars can be dangerous. Not only high voltage. Many people are maimed or killed by suspension springs, cars falling on them, fires, and other causes while working on ICE cars. Not all owners are capable of fixing their cars, but many are very capable and some are professional techs themselves.
By the way, it only takes 50-60 Volts to be lethal, as long as the current is enough, and it does not take much at all. Get trained, get personal protective equipment, and be careful.
GSP
By the way, it only takes 50-60 Volts to be lethal, as long as the current is enough, and it does not take much at all. Get trained, get personal protective equipment, and be careful.
GSP
Canuck
Well-Known Member
Sorry to derail the topic but I can't resist categorical statements about language. Of course there are degrees of lethal. Take, for example, viruses. Some viruses are more lethal than others. Or a shark is more lethal than a tuna fish... and I could go on and on.
Back to topic, I've been one who's concerned about after warranty issues. The extended warranty is not the answer and definitely not cost effective at the >4k + deductible per different issue. I'm ready to go in for my 6th visit in 8 months of ownership. My door pops open when the door extends. The service center has been positive and responsive and knew what the issue was. I guess the handle extends too far, causing a perceived pull. I know the service centers in CA are busy, because original appointment are about 2 weeks out. They are going to try and see me sooner to try and get my issue resolved, but I do have a list of backlog items. Lots of them are minor issues, but what happens to my door handle costs after 50k miles, which for me appears to be about 2 years and not 4.
As a side note, the mileage restriction was "lifted" for annual service, but not for warranty.
Good luck islandbayy, you'll be a champion for the rest of us for sure!
As a side note, the mileage restriction was "lifted" for annual service, but not for warranty.
Good luck islandbayy, you'll be a champion for the rest of us for sure!
DC is safer than AC in that it takes more amps to cause a problem with DC. So how is 400 DC worlds apart from 240 VAC?
600 V is the number the CDC uses as the cutoff for penetrating intact human skin. While current kills, in a practical sense you still need voltage. Of course we all feel voltage much lower than 600V.
Sure 110 can kill but the majority of deaths are of a higher voltage despite very little human exposure to high voltage and then usually highly trained personnel. In the CDC publication I looked at 66% of fatalities are over 600V and 1% were DC. Now - there are very few high voltage DC situations so it makes sense the number of fatalities is very low.
Either way - 400V DC handled appropriately is fine. I'll never forget a classmate whose brother died while working on an ICE when a screwdriver shot at him in just the right way.
Lots of things kill. Driving a car kills more people accidentally than almost everything else combined. Just because working with electricity can kill, doesn't make working on an EV unsafe.
600 V is the number the CDC uses as the cutoff for penetrating intact human skin. While current kills, in a practical sense you still need voltage. Of course we all feel voltage much lower than 600V.
Sure 110 can kill but the majority of deaths are of a higher voltage despite very little human exposure to high voltage and then usually highly trained personnel. In the CDC publication I looked at 66% of fatalities are over 600V and 1% were DC. Now - there are very few high voltage DC situations so it makes sense the number of fatalities is very low.
Either way - 400V DC handled appropriately is fine. I'll never forget a classmate whose brother died while working on an ICE when a screwdriver shot at him in just the right way.
Lots of things kill. Driving a car kills more people accidentally than almost everything else combined. Just because working with electricity can kill, doesn't make working on an EV unsafe.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
We typically agree. Except here.
Yes, there are different probabilities of what will cause a lethal outcome. But a lethal fish bite, whether from a shark or a tuna, is still a lethal fish bite. One lethal bite is not more lethal than the other. You're still dead.
Probability of being lethal varies, but severity is binary. It either is lethal or it isn't. If we're being precise.
SteveS0353
Member
We typically agree. Except here.
Yes, there are different probabilities of what will cause a lethal outcome. But a lethal fish bite, whether from a shark or a tuna, is still a lethal fish bite. One lethal bite is not more lethal than the other. You're still dead.
Probability of being lethal varies, but severity is binary. It either is lethal or it isn't. If we're being precise.
Thanks Bonnie. I was about to respond with exactly the same thoughts. Now, back to topic....
Canuck
Well-Known Member
One more post before we return everyone to our regularly scheduled programming. Lethal does not only mean causing death. It also means "capable of causing death". Some lethal things do not cause death - like viruses - some people die from them and others escape death - but it's still a lethal virus. For this reason, there are degrees of lethal -- some virus are more lethal than others (killing more people than other viruses), for example, and some fish are more lethal than others.
a : of, relating to, or causing death <death by lethalinjection>
b : capable of causing death <lethal chemicals>
2
: gravely damaging or destructive : devastating <a lethalattack on his reputation>
3
: very potent or effective <a lethal fastball>; also : having a high alcohol content <a lethal rum punch>
— le·thal·i·ty noun
— le·thal·ly adverb
See lethal defined for English-language learners »
See lethal defined for kids »
Lethal - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
But we will respectfully agree to disagree.
Full Definition of LETHAL
1a : of, relating to, or causing death <death by lethalinjection>
b : capable of causing death <lethal chemicals>
2
: gravely damaging or destructive : devastating <a lethalattack on his reputation>
3
: very potent or effective <a lethal fastball>; also : having a high alcohol content <a lethal rum punch>
— le·thal·i·ty noun
— le·thal·ly adverb
See lethal defined for kids »
Examples of LETHAL
- a potentially lethal dose of a drug
- He was sentenced to death by lethal injection.
Lethal - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
But we will respectfully agree to disagree.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
One more post before we return everyone to our regularly scheduled programming. Lethal does not only mean causing death. It also means "capable of causing death". Some lethal things do not cause death - like viruses - some people die from them and others escape death - but it's still a lethal virus. For this reason, there are degrees of lethal -- some virus are more lethal than others (killing more people than other viruses), for example, and some fish are more lethal than others.
Full Definition of LETHAL
1
a : of, relating to, or causing death <death by lethalinjection>
b : capable of causing death <lethal chemicals>
2
: gravely damaging or destructive : devastating <a lethalattack on his reputation>
3
: very potent or effective <a lethal fastball>; also : having a high alcohol content <a lethal rum punch>
— le·thal·i·ty noun
— le·thal·ly adverb
See lethal defined for English-language learners »
See lethal defined for kids »
Examples of LETHAL
- a potentially lethal dose of a drug
- He was sentenced to death by lethal injection.
Lethal - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
But we will respectfully agree to disagree.
No disagreement. You've just defined 'probability of risk' to a finer degree, vs. 'severity' which is always a stable value, once the risk actually occurs. So a virus that is considered 'lethal' is in fact considered 'lethal to many but some may survive'. In that case, the term is used to describe probability of a very bad outcome. Even in your own definition, you state 'a potentially lethal dose' of a drug'. Potential = probability of occurrence. See? We're in full agreement.
NuclearPowered
Member
Agreed. I've successfully rebuilt a Prius HV battery pack. Once you know the repair procedure and how to work around the high voltage safely, it's really no big deal.
While 240VAC(wall outlet power) can kill, it's usually not fatal. If one touches a live Tesla HV cable, it most likely will kill.
BTW. I never said that working on an EV is unsafe. It's very safe and easy, as long as the proper precautions are taken.
- - - Updated - - -
While 240VAC(wall outlet power) can kill, it's usually not fatal. If one touches a live Tesla HV cable, it most likely will kill.
BTW. I never said that working on an EV is unsafe. It's very safe and easy, as long as the proper precautions are taken.
