I'm not asking you to help me. I know that the happiness guarantee doesn't exist for non-lessees. You are the one who continues to insist it does, so I'm asking you to show me the guarantee. Like I said, a blog post is not legally binding. A written, signed purchase agreement is. No guarantee in that document. Thus, it doesn't exist.
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P85D with wrong seats, but had to figure it out for myself
- Thread starter sfisher
- Start date
I'm not asking you to help me. I know that the happiness guarantee doesn't exist for non-lessees. You are the one who continues to insist it does, so I'm asking you to show me the guarantee. Like I said, a blog post is not legally binding. A written, signed purchase agreement is. No guarantee in that document. Thus, it doesn't exist.
The problem is...honor what??? I have yet to see the terms and conditions of this happiness guarantee. From my research and available information, here's what I know. (1) It's only available to lessees. (2) you don't get a refund of money you've already paid. (3) you only are relieved of the obligation to continue making future lease payments.
I paid for the car 100% with cash. So if I don't get a refund, then I'd be handing back a car and getting nothing in return. You can obviously see the problem with that deal.
Anyone who has looked into the happiness guarantee can understand that it simply ends future payment obligations. You don't get a refund. Those who are engaging in magical thinking and asserting that the happiness guarantee exists for purchases clearly don't understand what the happiness guarantee is.
Just ask them if you can return the car for a refund. Please let us know the result, I'm curious.
Jgdixon
Active Member
Will you guys cut it out?
Go enjoy your car and stop whining. You will get the new seats if you wish just like the rest of us.
Please let this thread die and let's move on!
Go enjoy your car and stop whining. You will get the new seats if you wish just like the rest of us.
Please let this thread die and let's move on!
ra-san
Member
Is that the answer they gave you when you asked, or is that the answer you think they will give you based on what you have said?
You feel wronged. You said what you would have expected at/before delivery. They didn't do that. Now what? What actually makes it right for you? What are you looking for *now* (vs. being able to alter the past)?
Just curious how you would like to see this resolved at this point.
Refund the $3500 I paid until the proper seats are installed. Then I'll pay for them.
And that's a big compromise on my part, because I had a perfectly fine P85 that I was driving before...I would have been happy to continue driving it until the new car was actually ready, as ordered. I would still have $135k in my bank account and when the car that I ordered was actually ready, in March or April or whenever, then I'd have handed over the $135k.
NigelM
Recovering Member
Just to put the happiness guaranteed in perspective, I just signed my lease; when all was said and done, I had to pay ~13k. I have no intention of giving the car back, but if I understand the blog correctly, you will not see that money back. That is a quite good argument to keep the car. The second one comes when you drive it - it's awesome.
EarlyAdopter
Active Member
So strange to see people on here making statements over what the "happiness guarantee" is and isn't, what it would cost, when it applies and when it doesn't, when in fact not a single person here has called Tesla on it and gotten an actual bona fide offer. What do you have to lose in requesting an offer, if you're unhappy?
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
I agree 100% with Eclectic:
- It's absolutely, completely wrong to ask a customer to sign a purchase contract that says the car was delivered with seats costing $3500 extra when it was not.
- it's OK I guess for Tesla to ask if the customer would be OK with paying for the seats in advance and have them installed later but if the customer says no to that then ABSOLUTELY refund the $3500 and charge it later when the seats are installed.
Now I know that Tesla are honest and very fair in the way the treat their customers, and this has been my personal experience too, but why then not do the contract and other paperwork correctly to reflect that??? Again we're left with poor communications.
- It's absolutely, completely wrong to ask a customer to sign a purchase contract that says the car was delivered with seats costing $3500 extra when it was not.
- it's OK I guess for Tesla to ask if the customer would be OK with paying for the seats in advance and have them installed later but if the customer says no to that then ABSOLUTELY refund the $3500 and charge it later when the seats are installed.
Now I know that Tesla are honest and very fair in the way the treat their customers, and this has been my personal experience too, but why then not do the contract and other paperwork correctly to reflect that??? Again we're left with poor communications.
Jaff
Active Member
Elements of a contract....
Offer
Acceptance
Legality of object
Capacity to contract
Consideration
Simply, he did not have to accept the car in its (current state) at the time of delivery.
This does not let the Tesla DS off the hook for their error by not advising the buyer correctly.
However, a car is a complicated product, and given that the "missing next Gen seat at time of delivery" issue was already well known and "front and center" in the minds of those who were/are about to receive their P85D's, the buyer has to accept some of the responsibility here.
There used to be a clothier who advertised on TV (in the Buffalo area) when I was a kid...Sy Syms...his tag line was "an educated consumer is our best customer". This is a very true statement when speaking about a leading edge product.
To those who feel that Tesla should not take payment for the next Gen seats until they are delivered, you should revisit the elements of a contract...Tesla is simply not offering their product (with it's temporary "seat" defficiency) on this basis...if he couldn't accept this, hey should have refused delivery.
Offer
Acceptance
Legality of object
Capacity to contract
Consideration
Simply, he did not have to accept the car in its (current state) at the time of delivery.
This does not let the Tesla DS off the hook for their error by not advising the buyer correctly.
However, a car is a complicated product, and given that the "missing next Gen seat at time of delivery" issue was already well known and "front and center" in the minds of those who were/are about to receive their P85D's, the buyer has to accept some of the responsibility here.
There used to be a clothier who advertised on TV (in the Buffalo area) when I was a kid...Sy Syms...his tag line was "an educated consumer is our best customer". This is a very true statement when speaking about a leading edge product.
To those who feel that Tesla should not take payment for the next Gen seats until they are delivered, you should revisit the elements of a contract...Tesla is simply not offering their product (with it's temporary "seat" defficiency) on this basis...if he couldn't accept this, hey should have refused delivery.
I was only upset that I had pointed out that the final contract I signed had to say that the Next Gen seats would be installed later, as I had paid for them. I knew they'd be late. Just a minor inconvenience.
And when I pointed out to my DS that the final contract said that nothing additional was to be delivered in the future, I insisted that they add that wording, and he readily agreed and resent me a corrected contract. All of that was perfectly fine.
But when I went to pick up the car at the SC, the wording was gone, and I had to go through insisting that it be added, which after a minor discussion and some phone calls did happen. It's that last part that was bad form. I should never have been handed a contract that said the car was delivered in full, with all of the options I had paid for, because it clearly had not. Not the end of the world, but bad communications and bad PR on Tesla's part.
And when I pointed out to my DS that the final contract said that nothing additional was to be delivered in the future, I insisted that they add that wording, and he readily agreed and resent me a corrected contract. All of that was perfectly fine.
But when I went to pick up the car at the SC, the wording was gone, and I had to go through insisting that it be added, which after a minor discussion and some phone calls did happen. It's that last part that was bad form. I should never have been handed a contract that said the car was delivered in full, with all of the options I had paid for, because it clearly had not. Not the end of the world, but bad communications and bad PR on Tesla's part.
What's strange is that you insist that there's a happiness guarantee on non-leases when there isn't. I've asked. It doesn't exist for cash purchases.
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One thing you're missing in your Contracts 101 lesson is the F word: Fraud.
If something is misrepresented, it supersedes the terms of the fraudulently induced agreement.
A company that puts in its contract that you are getting product A (next gen seats), takes the money for that, asserts that product A is indeed being delivered, has defrauded the purchaser.
Perhaps some people don't care if they're defrauded. Perhaps others are aware of the fraud and don't do anything to stop it. But there's a large segment of people who don't read the boards and conduct extensive diligence on every nuance of potential fraud when they buy retail products.
My contract said my car had the next gen seats. I paid for them. The DS insisted that the seats in the car were next gen seats. You really think that I should have refused delivery on that basis????
And even if I did, take a look at the purchase agreement. It says you have to accept delivery of the car within a week of being told it's ready. Not accepting the car is a breach of the contract and you'd lose your deposit. Then you'd have to go to court to prove that the non-acceptance was justified.
EarlyAdopter
Active Member
Yes, it does. You need to escalate above your DS.
Look, I'm the only one on this thread throwing you a rope and offering you a possible solution. I'm sorry you can't see that.
Krugerrand
Meow
Fraud actually requires 'intent' to deceive for personal or financial gain. There's no indication that Tesla or the DS intended anything of the sort. It's much more likely that the DS was simply wrong about which seats were in your car, no matter how insistent they were. Ask any husband how often he's absolutely positive of something that his wife is telling him differently. :wink: In the case of the paperwork that changed after signing - now we have a 'possible' argument for fraud, but more than likely someone made another mistake (certainly more grievous a mistake and one for which they should be reprimanded in some way for).
Now that your DS knows, Eclectic, that you've got the wrong seats, I'm quite sure that they specifically or some other Tesla employee will be happy to do whatever is within their power to make it right. Can you wait for the Next Gen seats to arrive from the supplier?
Now that your DS knows, Eclectic, that you've got the wrong seats, I'm quite sure that they specifically or some other Tesla employee will be happy to do whatever is within their power to make it right. Can you wait for the Next Gen seats to arrive from the supplier?
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Now this is very interesting. Either the happiness guarantee exists for non-lease purchases or it doesn't. One of you must be correct and one of you must be wrong. I am very interested in knowing the final answer.
But what this also clearly demonstrates is that Tesla still suck at customer communications. And it proves the Delivery Specialists only sometimes live up to their title of "specialist".
EarlyAdopter
Active Member
LOL. Could it be that you're having too much fun launching your P85D, like the rest of us, to consider giving back the car?
I mean, it's fine to come on here and grump and complain and all, but it usually helps to identify it as such so people don't waste their time trying to help give guidance on your next set of actions. If those next steps are to begrudgingly accept the situation, a compromise if you will, and wait for the seats to swap out, then great. Just let us know.
I mean, it's fine to come on here and grump and complain and all, but it usually helps to identify it as such so people don't waste their time trying to help give guidance on your next set of actions. If those next steps are to begrudgingly accept the situation, a compromise if you will, and wait for the seats to swap out, then great. Just let us know.
Perhaps you missed the part of my earlier posts where I said this:
"Yes, the technology is incredible. Yes, the incomplete car is still amazing. But you know what? I'm going to think long and hard before I purchase another vehicle from this company for as long as I hear that they play these games. My satisfaction should come before hitting FY2014 numbers, and that's not what is happening. Plus, the car is simply not the car I paid for. It's misleading and they're sitting on my money while I have first been lied to then I get some vague promise that I'll get what I paid for "soon". "
The issue is not whether the car, in its incomplete state, is fun to drive. If I bought a house that was supposed to have air conditioning and it turns out that it doesn't, the fact that I use the swimming pool to cool off doesn't mean that the missing air conditioning is no longer an issue.
The issue is whether Tesla fulfilled its obligations under the purchase agreement. I think I've been exceedingly clear in identifying the problem. I've also been exceedingly clear in pointing out that there is no happiness guarantee under the purchase agreement. Now, there are some people who may want to make up guarantees that don't exist and insist that fraud isn't fraud because the underlying product is to their liking, but none of those things change reality.
The thing is that the people who want to brush aside serious customer service and contract issues are actually doing Tesla a disservice. "Earlyadopters" tend to be happy to put up with things that the mass market won't tolerate.
I've had several interactions with my DS. MY DS has told me that if I get a refund on the seats now, I won't be able to buy them when they're available at the $3500 price I've already paid (this is bizarre, because it's really all I'm looking for, but Tesla seems to think that getting a refund means that you never ordered the seats and thus they can't be retrofitted). The alternative is that Tesla keeps my money and one day I'll get what I paid for. I understand that you think I should just shut up and be happy that I had the privilege to buy a P85D, even if it's not what I paid for. If you'd like to give me the $3500 back, then I'll accept your position.
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