P85D with wrong seats, but had to figure it out for myself

[Vitaman]

I am in the same boat as Eclectic (as many are).
It never occurred to me to be strongly bothered by the seat situation because A-I had been waiting for the car for almost 5 months and was ecstatic to get it.
And B-I had read so much about the issue that when I opened the front door I figured there was a 50/50 chance I would only have to wait for new rear seats.
That being said, Eclectic makes a cogent case.
If Tesla was smart, they would send emails out to the people waiting for seats thanking them for being patient and giving a general idea when they might come. (Like by Groundhog's Day or before Easter)
Then offering a small token like all weather mats or something would go a long way to smooth ruffled feathers.

 

[breser]

I've read through this thread and I understand the frustration over a DS saying you got the seats, the paperwork saying you got the seats, accepting delivery and then finding out you didn't get the proper seats and that they'd be coming sometime in the future.

The "happiness guarantee" for buyers (not leasers) is not something in writing. It's something that Tesla will do in some circumstances (Elon's blog doesn't call it a guarantee). From what I've seen it's usually done on a very discrete basis. I traded my September '14 S85 for an 85D with a relatively small loss because I was disappointed over just missing the autopilot sensors. I don't believe that the price I was given by Tesla for the S85 I sold back was the FMV of the car, but instead was much above that. Nobody ever told me they were giving me a good deal, but looking around at the market gives me good reason to believe they did so.

I can't understand how returning the car is particularly helpful in this situation though. Even if you take Elon's blog at it's face, the owner would be losing something on this deal (damage/mileage). It leaves the owner without a car until the new car can be built (probably 2-3 months). All so that the owner can get seats that Tesla says they can put in the car once they become available.

If you're not happy with the situation, I'd escalate this above your DS, probably to a Regional Manager.

 

[Canuck]

One thing you're missing in your Contracts 101 lesson is the F word: Fraud.

If something is misrepresented, it supersedes the terms of the fraudulently induced agreement.

It seems like it's time for a refresher in Contracts 101.

Innocent or negligent misrepresentation do not supersede the agreement and proving fraud in these circumstances is not going to happen. You are also better off pleading negligent misrepresentation since, if you plead fraud and do not prove it, you expose yourself to significant costs.

If misrepresentation can be proved, the issue is whether the misrepresentation goes to the main substance of the contract, in which case rescission will be granted, or if it can be remedied, in which case damages will be awarded. When it comes to major items like buildings, for example, the courts look to things like the structure and foundation as not being able to remedied, and grant rescission, but a new roof, for example, can be remedied with the equivalent amount in damages.

In the case of different seats, the courts would not rescind the contract but would order the equivalent in damages. Then again, Tesla is giving you the new seats, so this is not an issue.

I agree that Tesla handled this issue very badly and the optics do not look good.

 

[Johan]

@Canuck: what does your closing sentence mean? "The optics"?

 

[ecarfan]

By "optics" I assume he means the customer perception of how the issue was handled, and how others may perceive it.

 

[Johan]

"The optics of how it looks" is a real tautology. It means the same as "how it looks".

 

[Canuck]

"The optics of how it looks" is a real tautology. It means the same as "how it looks".

Yes, you're right. It was poorly worded on my part.

 

[RAW84]

I agree 100% with Eclectic:
- It's absolutely, completely wrong to ask a customer to sign a purchase contract that says the car was delivered with seats costing $3500 extra when it was not.
- it's OK I guess for Tesla to ask if the customer would be OK with paying for the seats in advance and have them installed later but if the customer says no to that then ABSOLUTELY refund the $3500 and charge it later when the seats are installed.

Now I know that Tesla are honest and very fair in the way the treat their customers, and this has been my personal experience too, but why then not do the contract and other paperwork correctly to reflect that??? Again we're left with poor communications.

Agreed.

I liken this to closing on a new construction house. If 3%of the house still needs to be completed, I think most of us would agree a fair option for both parties would be to close and withhold funds pending the completion. Seller gets paid for his substantial completion, buyer can move ahead with all the things that go with buying a new house. Now, I feel more confident in Tesla delivering on its promise than a builder who are notorious for cutting and running once they've been paid, so I had no qualms paying in full, but it's perfectly understandable if others don't feel the same. $3500 isn't some negligible amount of money.

It may not be fraud, but I think it definitely qualifies as an unsavory business practice (which is becoming, or had long been, an issue for them)

 

[montauto]

Same situation with me ...

Had to figure out by myself that the car Tesla is trying to deliver has the wrong seats ...

My DS asked me to sign the delivery paperwork BEFORE the actual car delivery, because he knew I was going out of town for few days and he used that and a tactic about the Federal tax credit to lure me into signing about delivery without actually having the car there. I signed ..

The other day I returned from my trip and went to the SC. I wasn't aware that Tesla was delivering cars with the wrong seats, because I don't really follow the forums ... No one from Tesla including the DS was mentioning anything to me about my car being delivered with the wrong seats. When I looked up the seats I have immediately noticed that those are the old seats and I questioned the DS. He acted like he doesn't know anything and called a technician to "verify" whether those are next gen seats or not ... Tech confirmed those are the old seats.

You can imagine my disappointment since I've ordered a P85D for about $150k ( all possible options including child seats and extra set of wheels and winter tires ) and these crooks are trying to scam me by not telling me anything.

I told them, I'm not accepting the car and I want a new one built the way I ordered. They started mentioning that I will lose my deposit bla bla ... Can you imagine .. ?

I left the SC and I contacted my lawyer. She contacted the DS and he is not responding.

Not to mention that I was rushed back in June to order a Model S with my existing reservation for Model X, because Model X has been delayed and no one mentioned to me that a AWD Model S is about to come out in October, so I ordered a P85+ , took delivery end of September and 5 days later Elon announced the "D"... I was shocked, because if I knew I would've waited ...
After bitter conversations with Tesla I traded the car for the P85D with huge loss and now Tesla is screwing me again ...
I like the car, but Tesla totally ruined my entire experience with their company and my new car buying experience ...

I guess I'll go to court to sue Tesla for breach of contract and whatever else we could come up with and see how that will go ... It's just beyond belief how this company operates...

Very disappointed.

 

[EarlyAdopter]

Same situation with me ...

How did your "class action lawsuit" over the autopilot sensors work out?

Hearing about the D just 9 days after taking delivery of P85+ merits a switch!!! - Page 11

 

[Jaff]

Montauto, if you cannot handle the bleeding edge issues that can arise with any part of the purchase, delivery, or operation of a Tesla, or any other bleeding edge type technology or service, why don't you save yourself the aggravation and avoid these products and services? (return the car / refuse delivery)

I rather doubt, as you suggest, that the DS asking you to sign the paperwork ahead of time, was for any other reason than to permit you to get your tax credit on time...had your paperwork been signed late, then you would have been complaining the other way about this issue.

True, Tesla has not handled your situation as well as they should have, but, with all of your complaints (both past and current) about Tesla, I do not understand why you keep trying to acquire one.

Same situation with me ...

Had to figure out by myself that the car Tesla is trying to deliver has the wrong seats ...

My DS asked me to sign the delivery paperwork BEFORE the actual car delivery, because he knew I was going out of town for few days and he used that and a tactic about the Federal tax credit to lure me into signing about delivery without actually having the car there. I signed ..

The other day I returned from my trip and went to the SC. I wasn't aware that Tesla was delivering cars with the wrong seats, because I don't really follow the forums ... No one from Tesla including the DS was mentioning anything to me about my car being delivered with the wrong seats. When I looked up the seats I have immediately noticed that those are the old seats and I questioned the DS. He acted like he doesn't know anything and called a technician to "verify" whether those are next gen seats or not ... Tech confirmed those are the old seats.

You can imagine my disappointment since I've ordered a P85D for about $150k ( all possible options including child seats and extra set of wheels and winter tires ) and these crooks are trying to scam me by not telling me anything.

I told them, I'm not accepting the car and I want a new one built the way I ordered. They started mentioning that I will lose my deposit bla bla ... Can you imagine .. ?

I left the SC and I contacted my lawyer. She contacted the DS and he is not responding.

Not to mention that I was rushed back in June to order a Model S with my existing reservation for Model X, because Model X has been delayed and no one mentioned to me that a AWD Model S is about to come out in October, so I ordered a P85+ , took delivery end of September and 5 days later Elon announced the "D"... I was shocked, because if I knew I would've waited ...
After bitter conversations with Tesla I traded the car for the P85D with huge loss and now Tesla is screwing me again ...
I like the car, but Tesla totally ruined my entire experience with their company and my new car buying experience ...

I guess I'll go to court to sue Tesla for breach of contract and whatever else we could come up with and see how that will go ... It's just beyond belief how this company operates...

Very disappointed.

 

[montauto]

Montauto, if you cannot handle the bleeding edge issues that can arise with any part of the purchase, delivery, or operation of a Tesla, or any other bleeding edge type technology or service, why don't you save yourself the aggravation and avoid these products and services? (return the car / refuse delivery)

I rather doubt, as you suggest, that the DS asking you to sign the paperwork ahead of time, was for any other reason than to permit you to get your tax credit on time...had your paperwork been signed late, then you would have been complaining the other way about this issue.

True, Tesla has not handled your situation as well as they should have, but, with all of your complaints (both past and current) about Tesla, I do not understand why you keep trying to acquire one.

Well, after this fiasco I will stop trying to acquire one, but as of now here is the breakdown ... I've spent about $7k for Wall connector + electric installation, then I had to absorb $30k loss to trade the P85+ to get P85D, so I don't have much choice but to somehow get what I paid for ... Of course in the future I will not deal with Tesla anymore or at least not until they show rock solid confidence by avoiding such shady issues.
I have refused delivery, but now Tesla is silent ... another one of their games ... My lawyer reached out to them and they simply replied: "We will get back to you soon ... "

What is that ?

As stated the main technology such as battery, speed, torque, handling are great, but side components of how they handle their business when there is an issue is pretty close to fraudulent, don't you think ?

Many say, Tesla has great customer service because they will replace the seats as soon as they become available... Well do you really think that they do that for you ? They've made their calculation carefully that while losing money by swapping those seats, they will lose much more if they halt production on P85D until they get everything in place properly to built those cars and then deliver them, but they chose what suits them, namely screw few hundred people, but keep going to meet their Sales / production goals and meet the expectation of Wall street etc ... That's brutal, don't you think ?

The most fair way was to inform the customers that they can not build certain cars the way they were ordered and let me make the choice whether I want it that way or not. It's so simple, but they were afraid many will refuse to take delivery and will opt out to wait, which would be my preference, but instead they pulled this crap ... Really while they've managed to come up with great technology, the way they do business is simply not acceptable.

Also, I am NOT a Tesla supporter to forgive their mistakes, I am their customer and they have to live up to their values. They started selling those cars couple of years back and they've been in business for a decade now, but for some crazy reason they rush things, God knows why and push the negatives to their customers.
I feel betrayed by Tesla, because I was a believer and I'm pretty sure many others feel the same way and soon many will give up on them if they continue in the same fashion.

At least this is my opinion and this is how I feel...

- - - Updated - - -

How did your "class action lawsuit" over the autopilot sensors work out?

Hearing about the D just 9 days after taking delivery of P85+ merits a switch!!! - Page 11

We have to go through arbitration first, before we start court proceeding, however this was placed on hold because we have reached an agreement for the trade that was somewhat acceptable to me.
Now we're back to where we started with the seat issue, because I paid them, but I don't have a car and they already took my trade or in other words, Tesla took my cash and left me without a car

In few days if I don't get somehow compensated by Tesla I will start the arbitration process and if we don't settle there, the court will be next.

I still believe in the US court system and I will make sure to take it there if they don't make it right.

 

[NigelM]

Many say, Tesla has great customer service because they will replace the seats as soon as they become available... Well do you really think that they do that for you ?

Based on my experience as a customer for the last four years: yes, I think Tesla will honor that promise.

The most fair way was to inform the customers that they can not build certain cars the way they were ordered and let me make the choice whether I want it or not.

And I agree with you on that point. I think it's pretty clear to everyone (including the folks at Tesla) that it was not their finest hour in terms of customer communication. With hindsight it wasn't all Tesla's fault but nevertheless they have maybe learned something.

I still believe in the US court system and I will make sure to take it there if they don't make it right.

Free advice: accusing folks of being crooks, trying to scam you, fraudulent activity etc. might find you in court for quite a different reason.

 

[Jaff]

I would disagree with many of your assertions...

No one from Tesla insisted that you buy a P85D...that was your decision...so if you suffered a financial loss due to depreciation of your trade, then that loss occurred due to your actions, not Tesla's actions...there was no coercion here, no shady practices...just your desire (the same as many of the rest of us) for whatever reason(s), that you desired, to upgrade your car to the "D".

The "silence" by the DS from Tesla would be standard corporate policy from any large firm who has been contacted by a customer's legal representative...I would suggest that the DS will no longer have authority to speak on Tesla's behalf, without either guidance from "head office", or, more likely, someone from head office will have to take over communications with your legal representative...it is another link in the chain...another step to be dealt with...and unfortunately, extra links in the chain cause delays...I do not see any "games being played" here.

Tesla definitely has some failures (certainly not all...in fact the majority of the delivery experiences since inception (I'm on my 3rd Tesla), have been acceptable)...their delivery failure have been due to a variety of factors, but fraud (and I deal with the potential of fraud weekly in my business) is certainly not amongst these factors.

To answer your question about the rear Next Gen seats (missing on my P85D as well), the thought that Tesla will not perform as contractually obligated, has never entered my mind...and I would suggest that it has only entered a few folks minds...you are by far in the minority with your stance on this issue.

You state that Tesla has " made their calculation carefully that while losing money by swapping those seats, they will lose much more if they halt production on P85D until they get everything in place properly to built those cars and then deliver them, but they chose what suits them, namely screw few hundred people, but keep going to meet their Sales / production goals and meet the expectation of Wall street"...why would you expect any nascent company in an industry that is very difficult, complicated, and undergoing rapid change, to act any differently?...they had a supply chain issue come up, and they're dealing with in in the most cost effective way that they can...that is fiscal / corporate responsibility, not "screwing people".

With respect to the "fairness issue", this is a double edged sword...you feel that it is fair to keep your money in your pocket until the Next Gen seats are installed in your vehicle...Tesla does not...outside of any sort of "business practice / business moral" argument, there is certainly no legal argument to support your argument's side...again, a review of the elements of a contract will show that for those of us who are waiting for our Next Gen seats, but accepted delivery of our cars, we made the decision to do so...as you have stated that you have refused delivery of the car, you have done the right thing based on the tenets of your arguments...however, it is simply not correct to say that Tesla should agree to alter their contract (which we all signed) because of the failure to deliver the Next Gen seats at the time of the car's delivery...this is a business decision by Tesla, not a contractual obligation (not to be confused with the contractual obligation of Tesla to eventually fulfill delivery of the seats).

Well, after this fiasco I will stop trying to acquire one, but as of now here is the breakdown ... I've spent about $7k for Wall connector + electric installation, then I had to absorb $30k loss to trade the P85+ to get P85D, so I don't have much choice but to somehow get what I paid for ... Of course in the future I will not deal with Tesla anymore or at least not until they show rock solid confidence by avoiding such shady issues.
I have refused delivery, but now Tesla is silent ... another one of their games ... My lawyer reached out to them and they simply replied: "We will get back to you soon ... "

What is that ?

As stated the main technology such as battery, speed, torque, handling are great, but side components of how they handle their business when there is an issue is pretty close to fraudulent, don't you think ?

Many say, Tesla has great customer service because they will replace the seats as soon as they become available... Well do you really think that they do that for you ? They've made their calculation carefully that while losing money by swapping those seats, they will lose much more if they halt production on P85D until they get everything in place properly to built those cars and then deliver them, but they chose what suits them, namely screw few hundred people, but keep going to meet their Sales / production goals and meet the expectation of Wall street etc ... That's brutal, don't you think ?

The most fair way was to inform the customers that they can not build certain cars the way they were ordered and let me make the choice whether I want it that way or not. It's so simple, but they were afraid many will refuse to take delivery and will opt out to wait, which would be my preference, but instead they pulled this crap ... Really while they've managed to come up with great technology, the way they do business is simply not acceptable.

Also, I am NOT a Tesla supporter to forgive their mistakes, I am their customer and they have to live up to their values. They started selling those cars couple of years back and they've been in business for a decade now, but for some crazy reason they rush things, God knows why and push the negatives to their customers.
I feel betrayed by Tesla, because I was a believer and I'm pretty sure many others feel the same way and soon many will give up on them if they continue in the same fashion.

At least this is my opinion and this is how I feel...

- - - Updated - - -




We have to go through arbitration first, before we start court proceeding, however this was placed on hold because we have reached an agreement for the trade that was somewhat acceptable to me.
Now we're back to where we started with the seat issue, because I paid them, but I don't have a car and they already took my trade or in other words, Tesla took my cash and left me without a car

In few days if I don't get somehow compensated by Tesla I will start the arbitration process and if we don't settle there, the court will be next.

I still believe in the US court system and I will make sure to take it there if they don't make it right.

 

[Zaxxon]

With respect to the "fairness issue", this is a double edged sword...you feel that it is fair to keep your money in your pocket until the Next Gen seats are installed in your vehicle...Tesla does not...outside of any sort of "business practice / business moral" argument, there is certainly no legal argument to support your argument's side...again, a review of the elements of a contract will show that for those of us who are waiting for our Next Gen seats, but accepted delivery of our cars, we made the decision to do so...as you have stated that you have refused delivery of the car, you have done the right thing based on the tenets of your arguments...however, it is simply not correct to say that Tesla should agree to alter their contract (which we all signed) because of the failure to deliver the Next Gen seats at the time of the car's delivery...this is a business decision by Tesla, not a contractual obligation (not to be confused with the contractual obligation of Tesla to eventually fulfill delivery of the seats.

I don't yet own a Tesla, so I'm hoping someone can answer this for me: does the MVPA really state this? In other words, in a case where Tesla provides a choice of options, and I as the buyer select and pay for one option, then am presented with a vehicle that instead is equipped with the cheaper option, I am not allowed to refuse delivery without losing my deposit?

Seriously? I don't accuse Tesla of any maliciousness, but this seems like a clear-cut case where refusing delivery should be a completely acceptable response. Perhaps if Tesla was not only offering to retrofit the ordered seats, but also delay asking for payment for those seats, I could see a case to not let the customer out of the contract. But this seems pretty clear-cut to me: the car is functionally not what the customer ordered, and the customer was not given the chance to approve or reject the change prior to delivery.

 

[Jgdixon]

Montauto you really want to pay all the legal costs for this? Seems ridiculous to me.
I for one can't believe you aren't listening to all of us who have been dealing with Tesla for many years. They will make it right, I have no doubt. You seem to thrive on confrontation. Oh well each to his own I guess.

 

[Gizmotoy]

The "silence" by the DS from Tesla would be standard corporate policy from any large firm who has been contacted by a customer's legal representative...I would suggest that the DS will no longer have authority to speak on Tesla's behalf, without either guidance from "head office", or, more likely, someone from head office will have to take over communications with your legal representative...it is another link in the chain...another step to be dealt with...and unfortunately, extra links in the chain cause delays...I do not see any "games being played" here.

In most jurisdictions, after initial contact by a customer's solicitor, a company is no longer permitted to contact the customer directly. This is seen by the courts as an attempt by the company to circumvent the legal process under the assumption that only the lawyer is truly aware of the customer's rights, and thus all communication involving the case must be routed through the lawyer.

The fact that Tesla going silent is likely a simple side-effect of acknowledging that a lawyer is now involved. As you'd expect, this substantially slows communication as four parties are involved instead of two.

I don't yet own a Tesla, so I'm hoping someone can answer this for me: does the MVPA really state this? In other words, in a case where Tesla provides a choice of options, and I as the buyer select and pay for one option, then am presented with a vehicle that instead is equipped with the cheaper option, I am not allowed to refuse delivery without losing my deposit?

It doesn't explicitly. The MVPA you sign verifies the car is delivered in the condition you ordered. Any substantial differences will void the contract. I believe the only escape clause for your deposit was inability to secure financing, though. Per the contract that would leave Tesla free to deliver not-as-described cars and keep deposits, but it's unlikely they could ever successfully keep a deposit for such a case. Just because it's not explicitly spelled out in the contract doesn't mean the practice is permitted.

The point is moot, though, as he signed the MVPA and accepted delivery of the vehicle. In doing so, he agreed to delivery of the seats he ordered at a later date. There's blame to go around, certainly Tesla should have notified him, but that's one of the risks of accepting delivery sight-unseen.

 

[Zaxxon]

The point is moot, though, as he signed the MVPA and accepted delivery of the vehicle. In doing so, he agreed to delivery of the seats he ordered at a later date. There's blame to go around, certainly Tesla should have notified him, but that's one of the risks of accepting delivery sight-unseen.

I'm with you there.

 

[breser]

It doesn't explicitly. The MVPA you sign verifies the car is delivered in the condition you ordered. Any substantial differences will void the contract. I believe the only escape clause for your deposit was inability to secure financing, though. Per the contract that would leave Tesla free to deliver not-as-described cars and keep deposits, but it's unlikely they could ever successfully keep a deposit for such a case. Just because it's not explicitly spelled out in the contract doesn't mean the practice is permitted.

The point is moot, though, as he signed the MVPA and accepted delivery of the vehicle. In doing so, he agreed to delivery of the seats he ordered at a later date. There's blame to go around, certainly Tesla should have notified him, but that's one of the risks of accepting delivery sight-unseen.

The MVPA (link is my MVPA for my 85D, ommited first page is just the vehicle configuration, my personal information and when I accepted the MVPA at order time) is not entered when the car is delivered it's entered when the car is ordered. In fact it's entered before you even confirm the order. I believe Tesla is in breach of contract if they deliver a car that is not in accordance with the Vehicle Configuration. The MVPA says that damages are limited to reimbursement of his deposit. So I suspect all he'll be able to get out of this would be the return of his deposit. Which I believe if he'd asked nicely Tesla would have done anyway.

 

[Gizmotoy]

The MVPA (link is my MVPA for my 85D, ommited first page is just the vehicle configuration, my personal information and when I accepted the MVPA at order time) is not entered when the car is delivered it's entered when the car is ordered. In fact it's entered before you even confirm the order. I believe Tesla is in breach of contract if they deliver a car that is not in accordance with the Vehicle Configuration. The MVPA says that damages are limited to reimbursement of his deposit. So I suspect all he'll be able to get out of this would be the return of his deposit. Which I believe if he'd asked nicely Tesla would have done anyway.

I never said it was effective as of time of delivery, I said it is used to verify and prove the car as-delivered is the car you ordered. The first page is where all your configuration information resides, and what you'd use to prove Tesla tried to provide a vehicle other than what you ordered.

It sounds like they changed the ordering process, though. My MVPA is signed and dated by both parties a little over 30 days prior to delivery, two full months after I placed and confirmed my order.

As a note, your MVPA link appears to be broken.