Phantom Braking

[AndreP]

Except that would not explain how my July 2015 MS had a VIN in the 95,000 range. You think they sold around 45,000 MS between Sept '14 and July '15?

And yes, I recognize that VIN numbers are not necessarily in chronological sequence.

That I'm not too sure about, I'm just using published numbers picked up from what should be relatively reliable sources on the interweb to give some kind of rough context to the scale and refute Knightshade's assertion that 2million Teslas have been using Autopilot for the last five years without a PB-caused accident. They might still do that, but I think we owe a bit more to preciseness here in understanding what has unfolded and how the numbers/risk have evolved and are still evolving.

But the NHTSA surely wants to avoid any accidents in the first place, so I have no doubt they're assessing the reports coming in and are in communication with Tesla about the uptick. I don't think it'll be a surprise to anyone though per se, because owners and reviewers have been noting worse phantom braking on the latest Vision-only models since they started hitting the streets.

I imagine the auto safety regulators use leading indicators in a way very similar to safety in a range of other industries. Near misses precede incidents, incidents precede injuries, and injuries precede fatalities. If you can curb near misses, you'll stop incidents before they happen and the injuries/fatalities that could follow.

 

[valaeyron]

Not getting phantom BRAKING but am getting phantom collision avoidance. Often occurs when I turn out of my driveway or out of our subdivision - the car sees either a snowbank or a curb and reacts by applying corrective steering. No, collision not imminent in any way - this usually happens AFTER I’m 95% straightened out from the turn, and have plenty of space left.

I thought it was due to the snowbanks we had built up, but they all melted and yesterday the car did it again with the whole family watching. Everyone was definitely surprised and confused.

 

[sleepydoc]

I see your point, but that still doesn't make sense to me. The vast majority of folks running red lights are punching it when they have a yellow, and it turns red right before (or after) they hit the intersection. But for you to get hit by them, you'd have to be starting in your lane just when your light turns green (as theirs just turned red). OTOH, if you are motoring down the Texas highway on a 2-3 lane road (each side) and the traffic is moving 50+ mph with cars ahead and behind you, and you can see a green light ahead, why would you slow?

Either way it has nothing to do with phantom braking. I've noticed AP/FSD will start to brake if a car is approaching from the side a a high enough speed that it doesn't appear it will stop, but that's not 'phantom' braking, that's just accident avoidance. By definition, phantom braking is braking at inappropriate times with no clear reason making it uncomfortable, annoying and potentially dangerous, depending on the situation.

I drove 2 ½ hours to our cabin yesterday and had several episodes. The first was on the interstate. I was in the right lane driving 70. It was a clear day and there were no cars for several hundred feet ahead of me. A car was passing on my left, probably going about 75. About the time it entered by blind spot the car suddenly slowed down about 10 MPH. It was hard enough that my wife and I swayed forward and the dogs sat up in the back seat to see what was happening. Because driving 15 MPH slower than everyone on the freeway is not safe I didn't wait to see how far it would go and took over.

I had several other incidents where it would randomly slow down for no reason. Sometimes just a couple MPH, sometimes more. Never for any discernible reason.

 

[Knightshade]

As far as I know FSD isn’t allowed to be used in the UK, you can pay for it but not use it. I think it was due to be released last summer, not sure it happened though as there were queries as to who is responsible IF a fully autonomous vehicle causes an accident. The powers that be seem to think if in FSD a vehicles occupants are NOT resposible, it’s the car manufacture who is. Opens up a whole new ball game for car manufacturers with possibility of court cases etc. Someone else with a better understanding may clarify this though.

The public version of FSD does not make a vehicle autonomous (and explicitly tells you that in the purchase description) so I'm unclear why such queries would've been prompted by it.

AFAIK the UK can use the public version of FSD, but the features may vary a bit from the US version (last time I looked, which was almost a year ago, as one example NoA works in the UK, but requires confirmation of all lane changes while in the US you can turn that requirement off)

 

[sleepydoc]

reading through this and other threads on phantom braking, the excuses seem to boil down to:

• post video otherwise I don't believe it actually happened
• (after video is posted) it didn't seem brake that hard so it's not an issue
• This is all FUD by people who don't even own Teslas (despite all the people actually posting videos)
• it's not using the brakes, it's using regenerative braking
• it's not a safety issue so it doesn't matter
• TACC isn't supposed to be used on 2 lane roads
• it's braking for shadows (seriously???)

Ultimately none of these arguments holds up to any scrutiny and some appear to be attempts at deflection.

Regarding 2 lane roads, why should it matter? restricting TACC to divided highways means it can't be used on about 98% of the roads in the U.S. and for a significant portion of the population means they could never use it at all. Since AP and FSD use the same system and are designed to work on 2 lane roads, it's a bit duplicitous to argue that it can be used with the computer but no a human driver. Regardless, there are plenty of cases where TACC brakes on divided highways so that excuse falls apart anyway.

There are times when phantom braking is annoying and times when it can actually be dangerous. If you're on a highway with significant traffic having a car randomly slow down disrupts the flow of traffic and can actually cause accidents. People try to argue "it's the other drivers' fault because they should be paying attention, not following so close," etc. This is true but irrelevant, and a driver that slows or stops for no reason actually can be cited. regardless, the system is needlessly creating an unsafe condition.

Finally, whether the brakes actually engage or not is irrelevant. if the car is slowing down faster than it would solely from wind/road resistance it is functionally braking, regardless of the mechanism. The system is either not working as designed, or improperly designed. Like I and many others have stated, adaptive cruise control has been around for a decade in dozens (hundreds?) of makes and models. None of them have significant issues. Why should someone driving behind a Tesla have to worry about it randomly slowing down for no apparent reason? Why should anyone paying $50-100k for a car have to deal with it randomly slowing down and speeding up, making you sway back and forth for no good reason.

 

[Kandiru]

Yay or nay? That is all I need. Thank You!

I will be downgrading from my AP1 Model S which has been rock solid on major divided highways,
the only place I ever use it.

 

[TW14 9LF]

Been very happy with the basic AP on my Model 3. Have only had one or two incidents of "WTF", but have always been able to counter it quickly. But I pay close attention even when on AP, no set it and forget it.

Also, there are a bunch of us here that might take issue with your statement that you are downgrading.

Keith

 

[Kandiru]

Been very happy with the basic AP on my Model 3. Have only had one or two incidents of "WTF", but have always been able to counter it quickly. But I pay close attention even when on AP, no set it and forget it.

Also, there are a bunch of us here that might take issue with your statement that you are downgrading.

Keith

Agreed, Model 3 LR with the acceleration boost seems like the best Tesla deal right now.

 

[Xdama]

The public version of FSD does not make a vehicle autonomous (and explicitly tells you that in the purchase description) so I'm unclear why such queries would've been prompted by it.

AFAIK the UK can use the public version of FSD, but the features may vary a bit from the US version (last time I looked, which was almost a year ago, as one example NoA works in the UK, but requires confirmation of all lane changes while in the US you can turn that requirement off)

Self-driving cars: Companies not the users should be responsible if autonomous vehicles crash, watchdog proposes

Completely self-driving cars are not yet legal on the roads of the UK, although some vehicles with autonomous features are in development.

news.sky.com

This part I found quite interesting

“In April 2021 the Department for Transport announced hands-free driving in vehicles with lane-keeping technology would be allowed on congested motorways at speeds of up to 37mph.”

I certainly wouldn’t pay out for something that is essentially pointless for me personally. I’ll be honest though and say I’m not that interested in having FSD myself, I still like driving.

 

[AndreP]

The Traffic Jam Pilot could be quite useful if you frequently travel congested roads and if it were smoothly integrated along with a Level 2 system at higher speeds

Imagine an Autopilot-type functionality that is Level 2 and requires driver attention/liability at high speeds but then flips into Level 3 in a traffic jam where you can stop paying attention to the road until traffic starts moving at a high speed again and the system warns you to have eyes forward and hands on the wheel.

 

[Knightshade]

Yeah, that's basically a system specifically for traffic jams, and gives you an idea how much more restrictive the EU tends to be on this stuff compared to the US, where it'd be legal today to roll out a fully L5 system in half a dozen US states if anybody had one.

Weird cut off they use though- I guess it'll beep at you if you go over 37 or something so you know you need to pay attention again?

 

[PianoAl]

I'm curious about why some people report this problem and others don't. Is there any setting related to that? Is it just that some are more tolerant?

I've gone 35K miles with only occasional, mild phantom braking. I can tell you that on this trip, which I make a few times a week, I rarely have any phantom braking at all. If I do, it isn't that dramatic.

Much of the road is like this:

I'm attentive but often make the whole trip with only three interventions (at three known spots where the car wants to go into the left-turn lane).

 

[AndreP]

The speed limit is imposed by regulation UN-R157 and I think it has to do with reaction times of the autonomous systems and ensuring the driver has enough time to reacquaint themselves with their surroundings after being warned to take over.

Being able to completely check out of the driving task while on the road is no joke nor is a company actually taking liability for the driving task

 

[enemji]

I see your point, but that still doesn't make sense to me. The vast majority of folks running red lights are punching it when they have a yellow, and it turns red right before (or after) they hit the intersection. But for you to get hit by them, you'd have to be starting in your lane just when your light turns green (as theirs just turned red). OTOH, if you are motoring down the Texas highway on a 2-3 lane road (each side) and the traffic is moving 50+ mph with cars ahead and behind you, and you can see a green light ahead, why would you slow?

Not in that 2-3 lane situation with traffic. The situation I described was you are alone on your road. No traffic on your lanes ahead of you.

 

[enemji]

My guess is he was understandably expecting the Tesla to continue through the intersection and was checking to make sure there were no cars coming as he entered the intersection. You fail to comprehend the difference between a car being at fault and who caused the accident. Randomly stopping for no apparent reason is dangerous behavior.

Unless I switched lanes and came into your lane ahead of you and slammed onthe brakes, it is your fault all day (and night) long.

 

[ohmman]

Weird cut off they use though

Could be that 37mph is 60kph, which is a round number for our minds to select.

 

[Supcom]

After driving 1900 miles last week on Interstates with no phantom braking, I got the latest software, 2021.44.30.15 with FSD beta 10.10. The next day, on a 650 mile drive from Nashville to Dallas, I had several PB events, including one Grand Mal hard braking that required some accelerator to suppress. No screaming beeps fortunately, but still a full on PB event.

What I find most disconcerting about these is the lack of notification from the car. You'd think if the car was applying AEB, it would display a notice. But, I rarely see any indication on the display and there are no notifications in the history.

Whether my experience is due to the new software, I cannot say. But, it does appear that this software version rollout has been aborted.

 

[enemji]

Either way it has nothing to do with phantom braking. I've noticed AP/FSD will start to brake if a car is approaching from the side a a high enough speed that it doesn't appear it will stop, but that's not 'phantom' braking, that's just accident avoidance. By definition, phantom braking is braking at inappropriate times with no clear reason making it uncomfortable, annoying and potentially dangerous, depending on the situation.

I drove 2 ½ hours to our cabin yesterday and had several episodes. The first was on the interstate. I was in the right lane driving 70. It was a clear day and there were no cars for several hundred feet ahead of me. A car was passing on my left, probably going about 75. About the time it entered by blind spot the car suddenly slowed down about 10 MPH. It was hard enough that my wife and I swayed forward and the dogs sat up in the back seat to see what was happening. Because driving 15 MPH slower than everyone on the freeway is not safe I didn't wait to see how far it would go and took over.

I had several other incidents where it would randomly slow down for no reason. Sometimes just a couple MPH, sometimes more. Never for any discernible reason.

Thank you for describing this particular situation.

Do I see any reason why it would slow down? No.

Would I worry about it? No.

Why? Simply because if someone else is driving my car and I am a passenger I do not have the habit of questioning the drivers decisions on why s/he is speed or slowing down.

I am pretty sure you have never traveled in a school bus or even a greyhound bus. I am surprised that they did not put you on a no-fly list if you have the habit of questioning the pilot’s decisions.

 

[nvx1977]

I see your point, but that still doesn't make sense to me. The vast majority of folks running red lights are punching it when they have a yellow, and it turns red right before (or after) they hit the intersection. But for you to get hit by them, you'd have to be starting in your lane just when your light turns green (as theirs just turned red). OTOH, if you are motoring down the Texas highway on a 2-3 lane road (each side) and the traffic is moving 50+ mph with cars ahead and behind you, and you can see a green light ahead, why would you slow?

I've seen plenty of red light running videos that show people who are going thru the intersection WAY after the light turned yellow for them. Most of the time, the light has been red for some time. The other side has started to creep forward, and a car comes blazing thru the intersection. Just watch a few episodes of Wham Baam Tesla Cam. You'll see how most red light accidents occur.

These are not yellow light runners. They are blatant law violators that don't give a crap about the light at all.

 

[enemji]

After driving 1900 miles last week on Interstates with no phantom braking, I got the latest software, 2021.44.30.15 with FSD beta 10.10. The next day, on a 650 mile drive from Nashville to Dallas, I had several PB events, including one Grand Mal hard braking that required some accelerator to suppress. No screaming beeps fortunately, but still a full on PB event.

What I find most disconcerting about these is the lack of notification from the car. You'd think if the car was applying AEB, it would display a notice. But, I rarely see any indication on the display and there are no notifications in the history.

Whether my experience is due to the new software, I cannot say. But, it does appear that this software version rollout has been aborted.

It is my understanding that Tesla Neural Network is learning how to drive from the way you all drive. Isn’t that the case?