Phantom Braking

[sleepydoc]

Because I have no issue with cruise control? I drive a lot for work and have few if any issues. On FSD beta on occasion it will reduce speed Rarely on questionable side streets but Nothing like you and a few others make it out to be. On AP I can all but take a nap Every drive.

People's experience seems to be highly variable (@Alset2 's post is quite interesting.) I don't know if some people are more sensitive or pickier, if some areas tend to be worse or if some cars just experience less. My guess is it's a combination. My barometer is my wife (and my head.) If my wife is complaining about the car lurching because it's slowing down for no apparent reason then that counts. If my head is bobbing forwards and backwards because the car is slowing down then it counts.

If you have a 'good car,' or are otherwise unbothered by it then good for you (that's not sarcasm, it's a genuine statement).

In my case that I reported here a couple months ago it was the former. The car definitely locked up the breaks as started to rotate slightly before recovering as if nothing happened. I was informed that this is not called phantom braking since it was an activation of the AEB system and not AP. I was driving manually at the time. No AP or TACC active. It scared the crap out of me. Hasn’t happened since. A truck was passing in the opposite direction on a two lane highway at night.

IDK - what's the difference between phantom braking and the AEB? We don't really know. They could be totally separate or could be the same problem with varying degrees of urgency/severity. My definition of phantom braking is the car suddenly braking for no apparent reason, so that applies in my mind.

They're making it vision-only and powered by artificial intelligence. It might work worse right now, but one day it will work much better than Toyota's ever will.

That's nice, but I'm a pragmatist. There is a system that works perfectly (Radar, I'm assuming) and another system they're trying to develop that works worse. They (and you) hope it will work better, but that remains to be seen. It's also possible that it will never be as good. Until then, they are not mutually exclusive. Why ditch the system that works for one that you're trying to develop?

 

[sckor]

What makes you think they would do that? And are you saying that if its fine with you everyone else has to go along with it? It's "fine with me" if they leave TACC/AP as-is since I dont get any, so therefore I declare phantom braking isnt an issue! Are you ok with that? If not, why?

Since you have to explicitly say you accept that you are using a "beta" feature to turn on TACC/Autopilot on vision only cars, it seems like it would be easy for Tesla to offer a dumb cruise control if I say that I do not want to accept those terms.

 

[enemji]

Sorry - that's the lamest excuse I've heard. Adaptive cruise control has been available and works perfectly in mainstream cars for at least 10 years. Aside from braking unnecessarily, what is Tesla doing with adaptive cruise control that Toyota wasn't doing 10 years ago? I don't care if the technology is new or 'legacy.' I want technology that works.

Like I said, unless someone has a gun to your head you are free to go with others and their legacy technology and be happy.

What is the point of comparing and complaining? You want to provide feedback, I am sure they will like it as well. Complaining? They will just ignore you.

 

[enemji]

I do a lot of lurking here but rarely post. I am very grateful for all the wisdom (and entertainment) that I get here so thank you all.
After typing this I got a little long winded, skip to the bottom to get to my point.

I am a car guy and have had many cars over the years, many with TACC, and I have never had the "slowing down" issue (lest I call it Phantom Braking) that happen with my MS.
Once upon a time I was an ASE certified Master Tech (back when there were only 8 certs to get the master) and drivability / diagnostic were my forte' (meaning I would find the problem EVEN if a "code" was not present).
I give this brief background to support that I am also fairly good at looking at things objectively, especially about cars.
I also love my Tesla(s) and understand that I signed up to help Beta test one of the most amazing ideas of my life time...a car that drives it self. I am also quite impressed with the the technology and understand where we are in its development... so I am able to take these issues in stride .


This thread has intrigued me though, so today I had to make a short trip (About 60 miles one way) so I took a friend along that has never experienced FSD beta at all and does not really care that much about cars in general, let alone Tesla.

I briefly explained the braking issue and asked him to record every time the car "slowed down" inappropriately in his estimation.
We took the same route both ways and it was over cast (no sun shining and no shadows on the roads). All roads were 2 lane, well marked roads and mostly highways.
In 59 miles (on the way there) my care drove door to door with 3 interventions all acceptable to me (construction zones) and had ,by my friends count, 111 "slow downs".
On the way back I only engaged AP the last 45 miles and he counted 129 "slow downs" .
I asked him to do this because I was wondering if I was blowing it out of proportion in my mind because I am so acutely aware of it. Now being as objective as I can, thats a lot!

Now I am not posting this to argue or anything like that, I am just posting one, very un scientific experiment done by some one who really loves his Tesla's and the idea of being a small part in the infancy of self driving vehicles.
I have other insights that I kept track of during this trip but this post has already got long enough and I do not want to go on and on unless some one is interested...lol

Thanks for reading.

Perfect! This is the feedback cycle that should and must be appreciated!

 

[Knightshade]

I legit can't imagine wanting to disable AP entirely (which is what turning TACC off entirely would require)- it's literally the reason I bought the car. At the time I was doing 75+ miles per day, 95% highway, and it was night and day massively better experience on AP than anybody elses system.

 

[sleepydoc]

Like I said, unless someone has a gun to your head you are free to go with others and their legacy technology and be happy.

What is the point of comparing and complaining? You want to provide feedback, I am sure they will like it as well. Complaining? They will just ignore you.

well, I own the car. Getting a new car after a year and a half is not a practical suggestion. All I'm asking is that the car work as advertised and as well as every other car on the road. Not really a big ask. (at least it shouldn't be)

What's the point in making excuses for crappy technology (or crappy programming)?

 

[enemji]

well, I own the car. Getting a new car after a year and a half is not a practical suggestion. All I'm asking is that the car work as advertised and as well as every other car on the road. Not really a big ask. (at least it shouldn't be)

What's the point in making excuses for crappy technology (or crappy programming)?

They are new technology. It is very well known that they are trying non conventional ways with technology. Some works. Some doesn’t.

I stayed away from indulging in the Tesla technology all this while knowing that. I am now buying one, with full knowledge of these situations only because my Lexus got totaled.

Regarding your “as advertised “ I don’t remember seeing any advertising claiming anything they do is better than anybody. It is not even mentioned in their Order options.

 

[Supcom]

Since you have to explicitly say you accept that you are using a "beta" feature to turn on TACC/Autopilot on vision only cars, it seems like it would be easy for Tesla to offer a dumb cruise control if I say that I do not want to accept those terms.

Obviously, Tesla could implement a dumb cruise control. But they haven't and almost certainly will not.

 

[Ramphex]

Obviously, Tesla could implement a dumb cruise control. But they haven't and almost certainly will not.

Perfect so no cruise control is better than some cruise control. The constant speed pumping is nauseating

 

[Xdama]

I legit can't imagine wanting to disable AP entirely (which is what turning TACC off entirely would require)- it's literally the reason I bought the car. At the time I was doing 75+ miles per day, 95% highway, and it was night and day massively better experience on AP than anybody elses system.

I bought mine for SC network, range, cost of lease and quicker delivery time than any of the current alternative. All the auto functions I can’t say impress me in the slightest (on any car though), I’m just not a fan at all. The only auto feature on any car that I’ve come close to giving a thimbs up to were the matrix headlights on my previous BMW, all the rest are pretty crap and gimicky (like toys in a cereal box) to me.

 

[valaeyron]

I bought mine for SC network, range, cost of lease and quicker delivery time than any of the current alternative. All the auto functions I can’t say impress me in the slightest (on any car though), I’m just not a fan at all. The only auto feature on any car that I’ve come close to giving a thimbs up to were the matrix headlights on my previous BMW, all the rest are pretty crap and gimicky (like toys in a cereal box) to me.

...well, auto hold seems to work OK??

 

[Ramphex]

...well, auto hold seems to work OK??

Auto hold and auto headlights (notice I didn’t say auto high beams ) are about the two auto things I haven’t had issues with lol

 

[Xdama]

Auto hold and auto headlights (notice I didn’t say auto high beams ) are about the two auto things I haven’t had issues with lol

Auto headlights seem to be on pretty much always on mine, just put it down to weather tbh.

 

[Xdama]

...well, auto hold seems to work OK??

Ok I’ll give you auto hold lol

 

[rjpjnk]

IDK - what's the difference between phantom braking and the AEB? We don't really know. They could be totally separate or could be the same problem with varying degrees of urgency/severity. My definition of phantom braking is the car suddenly braking for no apparent reason, so that applies in my mind.

I tend to agree that any erroneous deceleration event instigated by the car ought to be called phantom braking, but for some reason some people felt it important to make a distinction. To my understanding their point was that AEB events are intense application of the brakes due to the car perceiving an imminent collision (a feature that can be disabled on screen), whereas "phantom braking" was reserved for the more gentle application of brakes that AP/TACC/FSD apply when the car is merely a bit uncertain.

Bottom line to me is if the car brakes when it shouldn't, it's a problem and it needs a name.

Here is my story:

Extreme phantom braking event tonight. No TACC or Autosteer

I've read a lot of posts about phantom braking but it never really concerned me much because up until today I had only experience minor and infrequent events. Tonight, however, my car really scared me. It slammed on the brakes to the point that the wheels locked up slightly and the car...

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[sleepydoc]

but for some reason some people felt it important to make a distinction

There's a whole lot of fanboys around that have a deep-seated need to justify, explain and deny every single fault that Tesla has rather than admit that Elon isn't perfect.

 

[AndreP]

I feel like a lot of the issue comes from shareholders who are more concerned with protecting their investment in the company than what people deserve as consumers. None of this makes sense for people who are buying a product from a corporation, we should want competition + protection by regulators who force corporations to spend money in delivering what consumers reasonably expect. And we should want companies fighting over our business and innovating while chiseling away at their profit margins so we get maximum value for our money.

That's the opposite of what you want as a shareholder and many Tesla owners also own the stock, which I think creates something of a conflict of interest and a more accommodating attitude.

 

[drtimhill]

Auto hold and auto headlights (notice I didn’t say auto high beams ) are about the two auto things I haven’t had issues with lol

FSD beta seems to do much better with auto high-beams, so I suspect that will trickle-down to everyone once the beta stack is generally available.

 

[Dewg]

Everyone take a step back and look at this logically. We live in a free market. If there were enough people unhappy with the performance of their Tesla purchase, they would not make a repeat purchase, or there would be a flood of aftermarket Tesla's available which would drive down the used market price. Neither seems to be the case. According to Forbes, Tesla is #1 for repeat buyers (as of December 2020). According to InsideEV and Kelly Blue Book, Tesla's resale value is highest in its class (compared to Audi, BMW, etc). This tells us that people are happy with their purchase of Tesla. This also contradicts views that Tesla creates inferior products purely for the benefit of shareholders. Many non-professional investors (casual investors) purchase stock from a company they feel positive about, which means there are likely many Tesla stockholders who also own a Tesla car and purchased that stock based on their experience of the vehicle.

Are there problems with the software, fit and finish, styling, or drive experience? For some people, yes. However, the above statistics show that they are either willing to look past those negatives, not experiencing those negatives, able to have Tesla repair/modify enough to satisfy their needs, or not in a position to extricate themselves from the situation.

Try to keep an objective view, look at the free market statistics, weigh your needs with what the market provides, and make the best choice for yourself. If you are very upset (which it seems some of you are), you have every right to be. However, analyze your experience and make adjustments accordingly. Is Tesla not repairing your vehicle or updating their software fast enough to match your needs? Then look at the after-market value for your Tesla and consider a private party sale which may surprise you and allow you to come out of the experience with minimal downside. Then research and purchase a vehicle from another manufacturer that does meet your needs.

 

[Bouba]

I brake all the time (slow down) when passing a big rig on a 2 lane road like in the video, for the last 30 years of driving.
Why do you think I posed that to begin with?

To be honest so do a lot of the time. The problem is that in the fast lane the vehicles following are often accelerating. So my first phantom braking, overtaking a big truck, with cars coming up close behind....it was scary...but credit to the car behind...he reacted quickly