Phantom Braking

[Reddy Kilowatt]

I just posted this over on the 10.10 beta site. Lucid is sending out an update. one of the things there doing is to provide an auditable alert BEFORE the emergency brakes apply. At least we could hit the gas as soon as it happens.

I don't get to many phantom brakes in my MS. They tend to occur at the same locations for me. It's when I'm traveling I get the big surprise.

 

[JulienW]

I bet most of what we experience as "slamming" (hyperbole) on the brakes is actually just full regen and no friction brakes involved. If not expecting (which is what Phantom braking is, unexpected) this would be all it would take to "jar" you.

 

[Bouba]

I just posted this over on the 10.10 beta site. Lucid is sending out an update. one of the things there doing is to provide an auditable alert BEFORE the emergency brakes apply. At least we could hit the gas as soon as it happens.

I don't get to many phantom brakes in my MS. They tend to occur at the same locations for me. It's when I'm traveling I get the big surprise.

While it’s nice to be warned before an emergency braking, doesn’t that defeat the purpose ?

 

[enemji]

And we’re supposed to brake for the draft of the truck? How often do you brake when you’re on. 2 lane road and a truck passes going through other direction? Maybe think about your answers before posting them.

I brake all the time (slow down) when passing a big rig on a 2 lane road like in the video, for the last 30 years of driving.
Why do you think I posed that to begin with?

 

[enemji]

Well, since every other car on the road kept going at the same speed ( except for the guy behind me) it would appear that the system has a big, wouldn’t it. Of course that’s what this thread is all about.

Science doesn’t give a €£¥$ about the peoples way of driving.

 

[_Redshift_]

I get that aspect of Tesla. I don't mind being a beta tester BUT when it comes to safety related features or with a safety impact, I am a lot less tolerant. It was total crap when they first rolled out the TeslaVision. It was a knee jerk reaction and poorly planned out when they had to deal with supply chain issues.

I'll gladly have just a dumb cruise control option and if needed, enable TACC only with AP or Fool Self Driving. I get Tesla's approach to things, I just don't drink the KoolAid. I am an engineer, worked at 2 major car companies, and am more tolerant than many for some design decisions but less so with others.

They think they are a software tech company. No surprise since Elon comes from that gene pool.

I have worked in Hardware and Software design all my life and now lead a software company. The difference between testing hardware code and software code is night and day. Hardware bugs are not easily fixed, so you need to test like crazy. Typically advised ratio of Hardware verification folks to Hardware designers is 2:1 for that reason. Software testing is a very lah-di-dah affair when it comes to most apps that aren’t mission critical.

Elon has always driven his FSD team hard, to make them meet unrealistic deadlines he has repeatedly failed to meet. So they do what they can. Throw it over the wall with some limited testing or as much as time allows them, and keep their fingers crossed.

 

[roblab]

Once a long time ago my car did a short braking slow down of about 15 mph while on a two lane road. I realized that TACC was designed to be used on four lane highways and quit using it on two lane roads and the "phantom braking" quit happening.

A few years ago a car was going along a two lane highway (two one way, two the other) when a semi in the far lanes turned left in front of a Tesla on AP. Cut the top of the car off, and killed the driver. Seems it was TACC, and it was looking under the semi. Braking is a hard thing to get right, and Tesla is working on it, and a few incidents of phantom braking are usually traceable to known causes.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Adaptive Cruise from other brands and Tesla's are trying to do two different things. Adaptive Cruise from other brands are just using radar, which allows them to be really good at following a moving car, but not so much stopping for a stopped car. I'm guessing, but all of these systems would probably run into the white truck stopped on the road like early Teslas did. Tesla is trying to solve the harder problem, with their Adaptive Cruise control stopping or slowing down for all possible issues, because they want to achieve FSD. So initially it was worse, but I've noticed that on my Vision only with FSD Beta, phantom breaking has gotten much better. And it will continue to improve, unlike other brands. And yes, it is annoying sometimes, but that is the cost of progress.

I will also nitpick, Honda's latest TACC is vision only (and single camera!)

 

[_Redshift_]

I will also nitpick, Honda's latest TACC is vision only (and single camera!)

Um, I saw the radar on the front bumper of an Accord just today morning outside my house. Resembled the radar on the AP1 Teslas.

https://di-uploads-pod6.dealerinspire.com/bianchihonda/uploads/2020/01/IMG_7653.jpg

Edit: I believe they omitted the radar on the front in the latest Civic, no word on Accord, and others. On the sides, they still use radars to monitor the blind spots though. So it’s inaccurate to say ‘vision-only’.

 

[drtimhill]

There was so much hope expressed:

Elon tweets "pure vision" will solve phantom braking

Well this is good news!

teslamotorsclub.com

But the Verge says:

"The problem may be traced to the controversial decision last year to remove radar sensors from new Model 3 and Model Y vehicles. The decision came after Musk publicly expressed a desire to rely on cameras to power the company’s advanced driver assistance system."

So... Is Pure VIsion an upgrade or a downgrade?

You do realize that the Verge reporter (Andrew Hawkins) only writes anti-Tesla articles? His bias is so blatant I can only assume he sold Tesla short at some point.

 

[Tam]

You do realize that the Verge reporter (Andrew Hawkins) only writes anti-Tesla articles? His bias is so blatant I can only assume he sold Tesla short at some point.

You might be correct that phantom brakes have something to do with Andrew Hawkins as a short seller.

Still, the coincidence is really striking. Once I loaded on FSD beta Pure Version for my radar-equipped Model 3, the phantom brakes immediately appeared much more.

 

[sleepydoc]

I brake all the time (slow down) when passing a big rig on a 2 lane road like in the video, for the last 30 years of driving.
Why do you think I posed that to begin with?

Why would you do that? I've never done it in over 35 years of driving. I might take a slightly firmer grip on the steering wheel but nothing more. None of my kids were instructed to do it when they took driver's ed, either. It's no different than driving with gusty winds.

If you're approaching a truck at 55 MPH and slow down to 45 MPH the you're now approaching the truck at 100 MPH rather than 110 since you can be sure the truck doesn't slow down at all. Now say you're driving at 45 MPH. You're approaching the truck at 90 mph, 10 MPH slower than you were in the first case. Do you still slow down? How about if the Truck was driving at 60 MPH?

 

[sleepydoc]

Science doesn’t give a €£¥$ about the peoples way of driving.

and what does it have to do with science? You're trying to argue that the computer saw some danger that required it to slow down and that no other driver on the road saw. The most dangerous car on the road was me because my car braked unexpectedly and blocked the flow of traffic. Keep reaching.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Um, I saw the radar on the front bumper of an Accord just today morning outside my house. Resembled the radar on the AP1 Teslas.

https://di-uploads-pod6.dealerinspire.com/bianchihonda/uploads/2020/01/IMG_7653.jpg

Edit: I believe they omitted the radar on the front in the latest Civic, no word on Accord, and others. On the sides, they still use radars to monitor the blind spots though. So it’s inaccurate to say ‘vision-only’.

So what you're saying is my post was accurate. haha.
Honda's latest (i.e. newest model) TACC is vision only.

I wouldn't be surprised if every manufacturer goes to vision only for TACC, it's cheaper.

 

[_Redshift_]

So what you're saying is my post was accurate. haha.
Honda's latest (i.e. newest model) TACC is vision only.

I wouldn't be surprised if every manufacturer goes to vision only for TACC, it's cheaper.

And less safe. IMHO, of course. I absolutely hate that my 2018 Model 3 has the radar but no software stack to support it anymore.

Again my opinion, but I think Tesla is going to come back to some redundancy in the form of radar or Lidar. It might take them a few years, but they will be forced to do it. I don’t care what Elon thinks.

 

[technobabbler]

You know what I don't get with threads like this, why the debate and exceuses. TACC is braking when it shouldn't, this isn't a one off complaint but several users on this board alone have mentioned it. Tesla should not get a pass because they are Tesla. It just needs to be fixed before it does become a problem and someone gets hurt because they get rear-ended.

I love so many things about my M3 but this one is just killing me. I drive 100km each way to work 4 times a week and I rely on cruise quite heavily.

 

[enemji]

Why would you do that? I've never done it in over 35 years of driving. I might take a slightly firmer grip on the steering wheel but nothing more. None of my kids were instructed to do it when they took driver's ed, either. It's no different than driving with gusty winds.

If you're approaching a truck at 55 MPH and slow down to 45 MPH the you're now approaching the truck at 100 MPH rather than 110 since you can be sure the truck doesn't slow down at all. Now say you're driving at 45 MPH. You're approaching the truck at 90 mph, 10 MPH slower than you were in the first case. Do you still slow down? How about if the Truck was driving at 60 MPH?

Lucky you. That is all I can say. The lord probably keeps the ignorant safe?

This should help you understand what I am talking about

Aerodynamic Buffeting of Adjacent Vehicles

"Air turbulence around trucks does not increase if they are longer or heavier than currently used trucks. However, the gap between the tractor and the...

www.thetruckersreport.com

 

[T4M3]

You know what I don't get with threads like this, why the debate and exceuses. TACC is braking when it shouldn't, this isn't a one off complaint but several users on this board alone have mentioned it. Tesla should not get a pass because they are Tesla. It just needs to be fixed before it does become a problem and someone gets hurt because they get rear-ended.

I love so many things about my M3 but this one is just killing me. I drive 100km each way to work 4 times a week and I rely on cruise quite heavily.

Totally agree, this needs to be fixed by Tesla and no excuses on that.

On the other hand, here is also a discussion how safe it is to use on a roadway with oncoming traffic where you need to be super-alert all the time in general compared to when you drive on the interstate where all the traffic flows in one direction. Everybody has a different risk-taking approach but I do never use cruise control when there is oncoming traffic since I assess that my reaction time will be much better without cruise control where my foot is on the gas pedal and I can switch to the brake pedal instantaneously and/or react if the oncoming traffic does something stupid.

Well, this is my last comment on this. In a nutshell:

(1) I want Tesla to fix this and
(2) I will use this only on the interstate with traffic flow in one direction

 

[qdeathstar]

Yes. All the accounts of phantom braking we've been hearing about here and elsewhere. That IS evidence.

What evidence?

 

[drtimhill]

You might be correct that phantom brakes have something to do with Andrew Hawkins as a short seller.

Still, the coincidence is really striking. Once I loaded on FSD beta Pure Version for my radar-equipped Model 3, the phantom brakes immediately appeared much more.

I'm not saying phantom braking isnt a real problem, just that Hawkins sees his job as trying to find anything and everything bad he can write about Tesla .. the PB article was in fact relatively tame by his standards. My opinion of the The Verge has gone downhill since he started spouting off.