Poll: current safety score

[GWord]

In other words, you are going to game your driving to try and get something you paid for, when that was never described as a requirement to get it when you bought it.

An alternate way of looking at it might be that the real value in the safety scoring program is to find statistically safe people who can:

1) Read and follow instructions
2) Modify driving behavior to suit the needs of the program.

Logically they will need beta testers who are good at reading and understanding the limits of the beta software and are willing to modify the typical driving role by becoming a supervisor (something that human drivers aren’t necessarily innately skilled at). Just sort of musing out loud…

 

[EVNow]

Because this is EARLY access, not “getting what I paid for”, as I’m pretty sure FSD beta in its current form is NOT what I paid for.

Exactly. I think a lot of people think they have a right to this fsd beta testing and are angry about any gates.

FSD (even general release Beta) is a right for anyone who has paid. But, "Early Access" is a privilege - not a right.

 

[gearchruncher]

An alternate way of looking at it might be that the real value in the safety scoring program is to find statistically safe people who can:

1) Read and follow instructions

I like this. This is like the stupid tests that have instructions #1-#9 that tell you to do all sorts of stuff, and #10 says ignore 1-9, and raise your hand. And then they use this to prove group A is better than group B because group A reads instructions fully before using it, even though numbered instructions that have #10 override 1-9 are just stupid instructions and that manual writer should be fired because they just wasted everyone's time.

The irony here is that most people don't even think "FSD" will come with an updated manual. There will be no instructions.

What is fascinating to me is that if they really need FSD beta testers not "safe drivers"- then why not just have the measure be how good you are with current AP? How often do you get even the first AP torque nag? Do you use AP where you are supposed to (no city streets), do you set speed limits reasonably? Do you disengage BEFORE it takes a hard braking event to recover?

They have all this data. But instead they chose "hard braking and turning" as their metrics, and left out acceleration and speeding.

 

[Wingsy]

In my M3 I got a 93 after about 15 miles of driving. I got hit for hard braking but I tell ya, it doesn't take much! What got me was stopping at a stop sign where the road suddenly runs downhill quite steeply about 100 or so feet before the sign. I misjudge that stop fairly often since downhill using regen braking is way different than on a level road. I had to apply the foot brake to stop at that sign but it wasn't what I would consider excessive deceleration. I think the downward pitch of the road added to the braking G forces.

The next day I went for a drive in my MS Plaid. Only once did I need to apply brakes, and that is when a truck in front of me braked hard to make a turn-off. I didn't have to brake hard since I had ample following distance, but I did have to do more than regen braking. Got a score of 96 on that drive due to "hard braking". I really think Tesla should lighten up on what they think is excessive braking. In some if not most cases, someone using hard braking probably did so to avoid a collision. Not exactly worth a demerit.

What I want out of FSD beta is the ability to use it on rural country roads where there are no posted speed limits. A lot of roads are like that around where I live. Autopilot on those roads restricts you to 45mph even though in my state the limit on unposted roads is 55. From what I understand there are no limits like that in the city street version of FSD. It's really annoying to be restricted to 45 when the real limit is 55.

I wonder why Tesla doesn't consider speeding 65 in a 45 as unsafe? Or running off the road on every other drive? Crossing the centerline 3 times a day? All the obviously dangerous stuff.

Now back to my MS... I've considered taking it to a drag strip near me one weekend just to see if I can set some record. It's a 1/8th mile strip, with 3/8 mile for stopping. If my math is right, if I pull 1.6 Gs in acceleration for 1/8th mile, I'll need about 0.5 Gs deceleration throughout the 3/8th mile deceleration zone in order to stop. From what I've seen that would kick me so far out of FSD beta that I'd have to walk the next 100 miles to be re-admitted. Tesla needs an "off road" mode.

 

[gearchruncher]

FSD (even general release Beta) is a right for anyone who has paid. But, "Early Access" is a privilege - not a right.

So what's the difference?
Can Tesla just leave FSD in "Early access" forever? For the next 3 years?
Elon is not calling this early access- he's never used the term. Even what the YouTubers had up to now is just FSD beta. Because it's important Tesla be able to say it's in Beta. Not in "early access." This is just a justification made up on the spot to start covering for the fact that this isn't going to go to everyone that requested it and had a sufficient score, even though Elon clearly said that was the case.

Tesla has every single AP feature in "Beta" since 2014, including auto wipers. Be careful what you wish for and justify. They will have no issue keeping "FSD" early access for 5 years if that keeps them away from anyone claiming it is their "right" to have something just because they paid for it in 2016 on a car that has "all HW needed for FSD."

Narrator: It didn't.

 

[EVNow]

Can Tesla just leave FSD in "Early access" forever? For the next 3 years?
Elon is not calling this early access- he's never used the term.

Musk and co are doing their damnest best to get this out to production / general availability ASAP. They aren't sitting around thinking lets keep this in EA for the next 3 years. They are investing a LOT and are absolutely at the cutting edge. Infact there is absolutely no-one doing what they are doing. You are just getting angry because the state-of-the-art is not what you want it to be.

Read the back-story of the button. Yes, its like early access.

ps : Did you not see this ?

 

[acatwith12]

90 and 99 Sat + Sun with 60 miles of driving each day, 100 today with like a few miles lol

 

[gearchruncher]

You are just getting angry because the state-of-the-art is not what you want it to be.

Ahem. What Tesla sold and marketed it would be. How dare a customer remember that. How dare they view the full self driving video on Tesla.com that is still there? How dare we remember "3 months probably, 6 months definitely" or "coming this year" in 2019?

Lol at "Limited Early Access Full Self Driving Beta." How many caveats can they put on something?

1) Not a beta. If auto wipers are still beta, this is not beta.
2) Not full self driving. City streets autosteer.
3) "Limited Early Access Beta"? Redundant much? Would Steam even let you try and pull this?

I'll keep in mind that Tesla is working their very hardest though, and that "Early Access" is a "privilege" but "beta" is a "right."

 

[devobail]

Given the number of people on this forum who state that they're driving at or below the speed limit, and accelerating gently, to keep their scores high, I'm highly skeptical of your all-caps statement. (Neither acceleration nor speed-limit compliance are among the criteria Tesla is using, unless Tesla is lying about that.)

While your statement is correct, driving and accelerating slowly will help you avoid FCW, hard braking, aggressive turning, and unsafe following, 4 of the 5 metrics being evaluated. So yes that’s exactly what people are doing. I’ve seen several Tesla’s in the last 3 days driving embarrassingly cautious and slow. I’m at the point where I don’t care anymore hence my 83 score. I refuse to ‘granny’ an unprotected left turn with cars coming at me for the sake of a driving score.

 

[macmee]

We have no evidence that will happen, just more random Elon tweets.
Look at the current FSD beta testers that post on YouTube. Are they driving safe? Many of them have hands off the wheel for a long time, and they get to keep it. Does anyone actually know anyone who was removed?

I am getting a kick out of all of this though. Those of you that paid for FSD are now trying to drive differently than you normally would, in order to satisfy a blind algorithm, in order to get access to software you PAID for years ago, that was supposed to drive the car for you, and you're worried that once you have it, if you drive badly in a car that is FULL SELF DRIVING that you'll loose access to the FULL SELF DRIVING you paid for, wherein it shouldn't be possible to drive badly since you will be using FULL SELF DRIVING all the time you drive and Tesla doesn't evaluate safety when you're using FULL SELF DRIVING.

NO REFUNDS.

It's crazy.

And the people now putting there "safety score" in their signatures. OMG. You have fallen for Elon's game so hard.

No it's not. I paid the 10k and I knew exactly what I was getting. highway FSD, auto lane change, better traffic light automation, and the promise of full FSD someday. All of this and following the development of FSD has been fun and exciting for me. If I don't get FSD a week from now I'll be disappointed, but I won't get angry or sue Tesla. Their only "crime" is they don't make accurate engineering timeline estimates. Aka they're like every other optimistic company I've ever seen or worked at, and I'm not mad at that at all.

 

[mhan00]

Ahem. What Tesla sold and marketed it would be. How dare a customer remember that. How dare they view the full self driving video on Tesla.com that is still there? How dare we remember "3 months probably, 6 months definitely" or "coming this year" in 2019?

Lol at "Limited Early Access Full Self Driving Beta." How many caveats can they put on something?

1) Not a beta. If auto wipers are still beta, this is not beta.
2) Not full self driving. City streets autosteer.
3) "Limited Early Access Beta"? Redundant much? Would Steam even let you try and pull this?

I'll keep in mind that Tesla is working their very hardest though, and that "Early Access" is a "privilege" but "beta" is a "right."

IT. ISNT. READY. I don’t get how hard that is to understand. Elon clearly thought the problem was easier than it actually was (like a bunch of self driving advocates who got super excited at the break throughs in machine learning in the 2010s and thought we would have self driving Ubers, Lyfts, Waymos, and taxis everywhere by now) but reality smacked everybody in the face. Time lines change in the face of reality. I paid for my FSD 3 years ago when I got my 3, and sure I wish I had it, but I can see from the many vids I’ve seen that it isn’t ready for mass release yet and my bitching about how they’re trying to get it ready for a general release doesn’t help anyone. I don’t know enough to offer any real advice, and they have financial incentive to finish it.

I’m driving fairly normally right now (except for taking the down hill portions a bit slower to keep my regen from tripping the hard brake flag again), and I’m averaging a 99 so far. If I get access to the EA beta, great! If not, I’ll live. I Think my many posts talking about FSD Beta vids clearly shows how obsessed I am with it, but I also don’t see the point in getting pissed at not being included in something that isn’t safe yet for a general release. They have their criteria to determine what data they need to help them develop the Beta, and I have no doubts they’re applying that in addition to the “safety score” in selecting who else to add.

 

[momo3605]

@GWord is it possible to adjust the poll options to be more granular? We should have options for 100,99,98,97,96, 95 and below. Would be interesting to see what the breakdown is

https://twitter.com/x/status/1442707528924684293

Based on Elon’s tweet, it’ll roll out to 100/100, then 99, 98, etc…

 

[GWord]

@GWord is it possible to adjust the poll options to be more granular? We should have options for 100,99,98,97,96, 95 and below. Would be interesting to see what the breakdown is

https://twitter.com/x/status/1442707528924684293

Based on Elon’s tweet, it’ll roll out to 100/100, then 99, 98, etc…

Its past the time when I can edit but I’ll submit a moderator request to modify.

 

[Magnetic]

Be careful what you measure because it will drive the Wrong behavior!

“First few days probably 100/100, then 99, 98, etc.,” Musk replied…

How to maintain a Good Safety Score: Satirical

Do not hit your brake or swerve otherwise you’ll be tossed out for hard braking and aggressive turns. Don’t brake for a Jay Walkers, car cutting you off, animal running out, etc just hit them, it won’t affect your score. If an unfamiliar light changes quickly on you run it, else hard braking, disqualified from accessing beta. Maintain a ~1/4mi following distance on highway. Put a placard on the back of your car stating “Go Around – I’m protecting and improving my Safety Score” Find back rural country roads and drive below speed limit for hours on end each day. Don’t use AP/NOA even though that is the system you’ll be testing. Hmmm. I’m sure you can all come up with others.

Again – “Be Careful What You Measure Because It Will Drive the Wrong Behavior” Wait just drive safely. Ok but again, someone cuts you off, steps out from behind a van, animal runs out, garbage can or ball blows into the road, bicyclist cuts out etc and you hit the brakes and/or swerve your score immediately drops. So back out you go to driving rural roads below speed limit to get your score back up. You are getting false positives as others have stated. Gaming the system.

Why not look at the accident free total miles car driven in AP/NOA over the past several years. Isn’t that what is going to be tested anyway? Tesla is the Data accumulator and massive storage warehouse of all this data, why aren’t they using it? They have all the data already on every vehicle. We know because they pull the logs on vehicles involved in crashes and turn all the data over to the investigators.

Let’s do conspiracy… Maybe the The Safety Score is a trial run for their Insurance offering software program we all get to be the testers for, advertise it as the FSD Beta gatekeeper???? Another one; Elon got into some good weed and wanted a good laugh, watch what I can make all these people do….

Anyhow – having fun with the Safety Score. Very bizarre. Can you see yourself sitting down with the grand children one day; tell us again the story about what that man made all the folks do so they could access a capability they paid for years ago, that’s so funny, why did they do it again? Did he make them wear funny hats too? You have to admit this is bizarre if you are in the queue and doing it.

Ok enough fun for today back out to log more miles, have a Safety Day!!!

 

[TresLA]

In other words, you are going to game your driving to try and get something you paid for, when that was never described as a requirement to get it when you bought it.

If you bought in 2018, you're right. If you bought in 2019 or later, this is literally all Tesla ever promised you would get for your FSD purchase. An L2, driver always has to monitor system. Forever. No L3 or L4.

I already responded to this. We (those that aren't upset) aren't working off the same assumptions as you are.

1) We (FSD Capability purchasers, and not all Tesla buyers) were promised in 2018 that we would get full self driving/autonomous driving EVENTUALLY. We even had HW2.5 and purchasing the FSD Capability package explicitly would include a HW3 upgrade when it was available (which we went in and took up Tesla on that promise without additional cost in April 2020). In other words, we (and even purchasers farther back) were promised FSD no less than purchasers in 2019 or later. They just happen to purchase at a time when some of those additional features were now included, meaning they received the same capabilities that 2018 purchasers now had.

2) What we paid for was the future promise of FSD (and incremental/additional capabilities along the way vs dropping the whole thing when we received it. I'll emphasize again: FUTURE PROMISE. We weren't promised a timeline (in the purchase contract). Many purchasers probably didn't care/weren't aware of what Elon was tweeting (e.g. - the many people who don't use Twitter at all)

What we are now "gaming" the system for is a peek/early access to that future promise. We aren't playing this 7 day game to get what we purchased. All those YouTubers (and non-YouTubers apparently) that have had FSD beta don't have what they paid for. They have early access. They even had to sign up for something officially called Early Access Program to even get FSD beta. (I also signed up for EAP paperwork and got in months ago but haven't been included in the FSD beta crowd yet.)

 

[Ruffles]

This might have been mentioned but I missed it. What is the max deceleration rate of regen? If you let regen stop you completely will it trigger a hard stop? I have a MYP. I don't know if the rates are different for various cars/models.

 

[momo3605]

This might have been mentioned but I missed it. What is the max deceleration rate of regen? If you let regen stop you completely will it trigger a hard stop? I have a MYP. I don't know if the rates are different for various cars/models.

Max deceleration rate of regen is 0.2g's, which is less than the 0.3g threshold for hard stop. I've played around with it, going from full acceleration to max regen on a straight road and i did NOT get dinged. The only time i got dinged is when i hit the brake on top of max regen one time to slow down for another car that jumped in my way.

There are some other people that are convinced max regen will cause a hard stop event, but that has not been my experience at all.

 

[mhan00]

Max deceleration rate of regen is 0.2g's, which is less than the 0.3g threshold for hard stop. I've played around with it, going from full acceleration to max regen on a straight road and i did NOT get dinged. The only time i got dinged is when i hit the brake on top of max regen one time to slow down for another car that jumped in my way.

There are some other people that are convinced max regen will cause a hard stop event, but that has not been my experience at all.

Try letting regen go to max while coasting downhill and get back to me. I was hit with hard braking once in my 100 miles of driving since getting the update, and it was on the first day when I did my standard “let the car get up to speed going downhill, and then let off the go pedal and let it regen coast to a stop at the light at the bottom of the hill”, and got a 95 for that drive. Never once hit the brake pedal on my drive that day while doing errands. Ended up at a 97 for the day after driving home. Have since gone down the hill much slower and Haven’t been dinged since and am currently sitting at a 99. 100% doing pure regen Will ding you for hard braking, at least if you add gravity into the mix.

 

[momo3605]

Ahh

Try letting regen go to max while coasting downhill and get back to me. I was hit with hard braking once in my 100 miles of driving since getting the update, and it was on the first day when I did my standard “let the car get up to speed going downhill, and then let off the go pedal and let it regen coast to a stop at the light at the bottom of the hill”, and got a 95 for that drive. Never once hit the brake pedal on my drive that day while doing errands. Ended up at a 97 for the day after driving home. Have since gone down the hill much slower and Haven’t been dinged since and am currently sitting at a 99. 100% doing pure regen Will ding you for hard braking, at least if you add gravity into the mix.

Ahh I see. So it’s the addition of gravity that possibly pushes it over. Luckily all the roads around me are pretty flat

 

[LisaLisa]

I’m still waiting for the Safety Score to appear on my app. I clicked the button Saturday afternoon and I’m “in the queue” App upto date, restarted a few times, drove 300+ miles yesterday and over 90 today. Am I missing something?