Poll: Is FSD Worth the Cost?

[Garlan Garner]

I would be happy just to have the TACC stop trying to kill me without extreme phantom breaking. I so wish there was a dumbed down version of it we can select where it's just a cruise with radar.

My wife won't allow me to use cruise at all now. I would understand if these things were happening on Autopilot maybe, but just on cruise nope!

A dumbed down version of FSD is AP.

 

[Durzel]

I paid (or will be) for FSD on my M3, mainly because psychologically it feels like the self driving stuff, in all its forms, is the car’s party piece. It’s a Tesla, everyone expects it to be driving itself.

I’ve rationalised it to myself that it’s like paying for the Touch Bar on the new MacBook Pros. It feels like it’s USP. It’s gimmicky, it has limited use (I barely ever use it in anything but it’s most primitive application), but I like that it’s a shiny feature not seen on other laptops, or even older MBPs. Could I rationally explain paying extra for it? No. I feel the same way about FSD.

I’m in the UK so FSD is even more crippled over here thanks to the EC directives than it is over there, and we’re not seeing the latest stuff like traffic lights and being a foreign market probably won’t for some time.

I still paid (£5800) for it though. Just don’t ask me to explain why.

 

[ElectricIAC]

I think people in this thread are voting based on what they purchased.

I bought into the hype. Mostly because I was already used to EAP but the adjustment on my car was very generous as well so I figured why not. Would I do it again? Probably not. $7,000 buys a lot of nights at hotels to fight off fatigue.

 

[trak0r]

There are certainly people on here who use NoA every day and enjoy it and think the $7000 is well worth it.

There are others that say the only useful FSD feature is the auto lane change when you use the signal while AutoPilot is enabled. I personally don't see how this is worth $7000 (that is a huge sum of money), but some people enjoy this enough that they would happily pay again.

In a true value sense, no AP option is best. Save a few more thousand, lose AutoSteer and TACC (you still get regular cruise control after this). We really wanted the adaptive cruise and don't really use AutoSteer (another topic entirely), so even that I'm not sure was worth thousands. If you make frequent successful use of AutoSteer, I could see that being a substantial value and worth getting.

The rest of the FSD features we either don't use because they're not available on our roads (NoA), we don't like their performance to use daily (Auto park, auto lane change) or are flat out illegal to use right now (enhanced summon) in our province. So definitely not worth the CAD$9200 it would cost.

EDIT: I should add that the legality and availability are two huge things I don't see changing any time soon, so my response is somewhat location dependent. Even if the features were fully available, I wouldn't use them for the same reasons you mentioned. I don't have confidence in these improving fast enough to happen within the ownership period of some owners. Keep in mind their goal is to be "feature complete" for FSD (meaning add city driving at this point), which is not the same goal as a refined assisted driving experience that solves people's current concerns with it.

If I wanted FSD, today I would need to spend $10,700 (with taxes) to get it due to buying my performance model 2 weeks too early (Mar 2019).

I probably would've spent the $2,000 price bump to add AP it at the time due to base price adjustment to make AP standard, but I agree with you, now it will cost me $3,210 to get today and I really only wanted TACC since AP nearly killed me a few times when I tried it on local roads.

Tesla is decades off from a robust driverless (human replacement) system because they still rely on camera's utilizing vastly under-constrained and poorly defined, relative to humans, machine learning algorithms that simply do not have the coverage required to match that of a human brain. The level of coverage a human brain should be a minimum (Hi HAL), but a true autopilot system should be an order of magnitude superior to a human brain ability. Tesla is effectively attempting level 4/5 autonomy without LIDAR currently. When you think about that task, you are basically replicating what a human brain does so easily to recognise dangers and real world obstacles by sending millions of pictures through their machine learning. I believe It will take self-aware level of cognitive ability to finally get to where human brains are at while utilizing merely passive feedback. This is why Tesla, while innovative as hell, is 3-4 years behind on its promises already.

TLDR: Don't through away $11k for FSD right now.

 

[ElectricIAC]

Learning is fine and dandy but abstract thinking is where the money is at and the hardware/software just isn’t capable enough to do this.

 

[Garlan Garner]

If I wanted FSD, today I would need to spend $10,700 (with taxes) to get it due to buying my performance model 2 weeks too early (Mar 2019).

I probably would've spent the $2,000 price bump to add AP it at the time due to base price adjustment to make AP standard, but I agree with you, now it will cost me $3,210 to get today and I really only wanted TACC since AP nearly killed me a few times when I tried it on local roads.

Tesla is decades off from a robust driverless (human replacement) system because they still rely on camera's utilizing vastly under-constrained and poorly defined, relative to humans, machine learning algorithms that simply do not have the coverage required to match that of a human brain. The level of coverage a human brain should be a minimum (Hi HAL), but a true autopilot system should be an order of magnitude superior to a human brain ability. Tesla is effectively attempting level 4/5 autonomy without LIDAR currently. When you think about that task, you are basically replicating what a human brain does so easily to recognise dangers and real world obstacles by sending millions of pictures through their machine learning. I believe It will take self-aware level of cognitive ability to finally get to where human brains are at while utilizing merely passive feedback. This is why Tesla, while innovative as hell, is 3-4 years behind on its promises already.

TLDR: Don't through away $11k for FSD right now.

3-4 years behind on promises and how many years ahead of the competition?

 

[ElectricIAC]

3-4 years behind on promises and how many years ahead of the competition?

That gap will close eventually. I really want Tesla to do better, and if that means they slow down and focus on what’s important *now* (SC network, Sales and Service experience, build quality) rather than some far flung JohnnyCab fantasy world then I’m okay with EAP being what it is now under whatever name they want to call it this year.

 

[Sanjayjpatel]

Actually my autopilot 1.0 does lane change with the stark without AP disable.

Good afternoon everyone,

After 10 months with EAP, I have mixed feelings on the whole thing. I think autopilot is fantastic, and use it every day.

But I find NOA to be an extremely frustrating experience because of how it manages the lane I'm in. It wants to change lanes whenever the car in front of me is going 2 MPH slower, at which point it cuts off the guy next to me, and stays parked in front of him for the next couple miles until it decides to move over. Taking exit ramps automatically is nice, but overall I don't find NOA to be helpful, which adds no value to me.

I was really excited for Enhanced Summon to be released. But after awkwardly blocking parking lots a couple times, I realized in current form it's not useful for anything other than a mostly empty parking lot. I would much rather it be cautious than risk hitting things, but if it has to be THIS cautious to be safe, I don't find it useful.

At this point, FSD isn't yet available, but after seeing how NOA and enhanced summon have been implemented, I have a tough time being optimistic. If are making another purchase today, I would opt for the standard autopilot and nothing more. I'm curious to know what you guys think? Is it worth forking over the money with the expectation that these features and FSD will evolve and be great? Or do you think it's unlikely they will add $7000 in value to your driving experience?

 

[Garlan Garner]

That gap will close eventually.

no - no - no.. That's not fair. I see what you are doing there. LOL

I'll take you up on that. I would LOVE to see other vendors catch up when they don't even have OTA updates.

 

[Artax]

I think people in this thread are voting based on what they purchased.

Not sure that is the case. I purchased FSD but voted Std AP. Looking at the comments, it appears many who purchased it are disappointed with FSD.

 

[addictedtocars]

I think it will take a very long time for a practical FSD but that doesn't mean I can't take advantage of an imperfect system.

It's worth the cost if you can find out what are its weaknesses and adapt to its imperfect capability.

Otherwise, save your money and wait until the system is proven.

The downside of waiting is it might take a very long time because there's none in the market that can be as versatile as Tesla's automation system.

If you want Waymo, you have to move to the 50 squared miles in Chandler, AZ and enroll in its rideshare program.

If you want GM Supercruise, then it disables itself in the city roads, construction zones, roads that's not prepared in advance by the system... and it still tries to catch up with Auto Lane Change this year.

 

[AdamMacDon]

I don't really think the price of FSD can go up above $7k. If anything it will come down.

And since there's so much uncertainty about if/when it may ever perform well, I'd rather keep my $7k and possibly pay a little more for it later, when you're actually getting something for your money.

This. People who say it will go up in price significantly in the future are insane. If it even hits 2x in price it would be worth the same as a new economy car here in Canada ($18,400). It's already hard to imagine buying at this time, at that price point I could upgrade from my SR+ to an AWD model with +50% energy capacity and a "premium" interior. I can't speak for everyone, but I know what most SR+ owners in my area would choose if they had that money to play with.

I think true FSD is minimum 5 years away, and this is longer than the average North American keeps their car. Sure maybe Tesla owners might keep a car a year or two longer than average, but it's very hard to extract an ROI based on these numbers.

 

[addictedtocars]

Progress is slow. FSD is so complex because of the variables in weather, road design, road maintenance, etc. IMO full autonomous is not going to happen anytime soon. Would I shock you if I told you I drive a GM prototype Olds 98 in 1976? And we still don’t have universal self braking today.

 

[Artax]

no - no - no.. That's not fair. I see what you are doing there. LOL

I'll take you up on that. I would LOVE to see other vendors catch up when they don't even have OTA updates.

Not sure I care so much about OTA updates... if I get something that JUST WORKS with the advertised features. I have lost count of the number of times Tesla rolled out a s/w update that broke something that used to work.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Not sure I care so much about OTA updates... if I get something that JUST WORKS with the advertised features. I have lost count of the number of times Tesla rolled out a s/w update that broke something that used to work.

You should sell your Tesla or never install an update.

That way....everything will work.

 

[TomB985]

Not sure that is the case. I purchased FSD but voted Std AP. Looking at the comments, it appears many who purchased it are disappointed with FSD.

That would sort of be me.

With my EAP, I have the same features that the FSD purchases have. I don’t think it’s worth the up charge for just those features, let alone the $7000 being charged for FSD if this is all we are getting.

I have faith that FSD will come, but no confidence in their timeline. Or that it will be released as a polished product in the near future. So I think standard Autopilot is the way to go here.

 

[JimBinDallas]

Good afternoon everyone,

After 10 months with EAP, I have mixed feelings on the whole thing. I think autopilot is fantastic, and use it every day.

But I find NOA to be an extremely frustrating experience because of how it manages the lane I'm in. It wants to change lanes whenever the car in front of me is going 2 MPH slower, at which point it cuts off the guy next to me, and stays parked in front of him for the next couple miles until it decides to move over. Taking exit ramps automatically is nice, but overall I don't find NOA to be helpful, which adds no value to me.

I have a 2015 S85D with AP1 (mfg 08/2015). Cars one week later were badged as 90D and a year later AP2.0 hardware was standard, so no upgrades ever for me. I have what may be the best combo. Lane keeping TACC with turn signal initiated lane change. I use it nearly every day and it is a godsend on my half-dozen trips from Dallas to Denver each year and the 460 mi trips to see my son in Austin a couple times a month. I echo several of the comments about weather degradation (stopping on the side of the interstate in a cloudburst storm about radar inoperative to find a wet leaf plastered on it.) My summon (40 ft forward or back only) gets the car out of the garage when your arms are loaded, and puts it back. Autopark only presents about 1 of every 5-10 times I want it.

I would love to have the more accurate 3 front cameras instead of 1 and DashCam available.

I feel like my lane keeping with TACC is the minimum useful version of AutoPilot to be worth any extra cost, but certainly not $7K.

 

[addictedtocars]

Progress is slow. FSD is so complex because of the variables in weather, road design, road maintenance, etc. IMO full autonomous is not going to happen anytime soon. Would I shock you if I told you I drive a GM prototype Olds 98 in 1976? And we still don’t have universal self braking today.

Edit: should have said - self braking prototype “

 

[m.c.b.]

I use NOA frequently and have done so on a recent 1,900-mile trip and a prior 2,600-mile trip. The places where NOA is having problems are well documented and require more attention during those times. Poorly marked lane changes in construction areas are the most frequent problem area. There are times when I have canceled lane changes because of changing traffic and a desire not to pull out in front of a car coming fast in the intended lane. Most recently it has backed off and canceled lane changes on its own when a faster car is coming up in the intended lane. Most of the time, it anticipates my desire to change lanes within a few seconds. I am hopeful for the FSD capabilities and am impressed with the improvements that have come over time. It will only get better.

 

[Garlan Garner]

That would sort of be me.

With my EAP, I have the same features that the FSD purchases have. I don’t think it’s worth the up charge for just those features, let alone the $7000 being charged for FSD if this is all we are getting.

I have faith that FSD will come, but no confidence in their timeline. Or that it will be released as a polished product in the near future. So I think standard Autopilot is the way to go here.

I LOVE the parts of FSD that are out now. Its fabulous.

Just like I loved the parts of AP as they rolled out.