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Potential BOLT customers being suctioned up by Tesla !

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One thing that can help is if the Bolt can do 80kW charging and VW's investment will help also (presuming the money is used wisely). I don't believe there is an answer yet if the Bolt can do 80kW charging.
According to a GM exec I spoke to, the Bolt EV has a peak charging rate of "a little bit over" 50 kW and a peak charging current of around 150A.

This is consistent with a recent Electrek report of a peak rate of 55 kW. A recent Motor Trend article said 60 kW. We won't know precisely until someone plugs a Bolt EV into a next generation DC charging station sometime later this year.

Given this data, the Bolt owner manual reference to 80 kW presumably meant that a theoretical CCS 1.0 rate of 160 kW at 500V would be enough to ensure full charging times.

Since today's chargers are limited to 125A, this implies that charging on next generation chargers capable of 160A+ will result in about 20% faster charging at lower state of charge levels than what you can achieve with a Bolt EV at today's installed stations.

As I said on another thread here recently, I just finished a roughly 1,400 mile road trip. I drove down to
LA in one day from San Francisco and drove back to there from Santa Barbara in one day. During my total of 5 days I took various day trips to San Diego and other nearby areas. Essentially all of my charging was on EVgo DC chargers (mostly 125A with a single 100A unit) although I did use a 62A ChargePoint charger in Paso Robles during lunch.

My experience with charging convenience was about on par with the Signature P85 Model S that I drove down to Las Vegas for CES in January using Tesla Supercharger stations in that I spent relatively little time twiddling my thumbs waiting for charging to complete.

I plugged in and grabbed a coffee at Starbucks, had lunch, or did some overdue and necessary shopping at the mall. The Bolt EV took somewhat longer to charge but not necessarily longer than the time I actually needed to perform my various chores. I would rate my trip as a success. I found the Bolt practical for an occasional and casual long distance trip due to its relatively long EV highway range. The EVgo 30 minute timer was annoying but manageable. I assume that policy will be changed soon now that bigger battery cars are plugging in.

As I expected, the Bolt EV is not just limited to being a "city commuter car". I look forward to taking it on future long distance drives.
 
Hi Jeff N,

I carry a host of complaints about GM, but one of the more acute ones is GM's support of anti-competitive practices against Tesla. I'm curious how you square your open support of GM EVs with your interest in EV adoption.
My opinions and actions are shaped by multiple factors.

Personally, back in 2011 I really wanted a long-range capable vehicle for commuting and road trips and I wanted to drive an EV to the extent that was practical. The Model S was not available at that time and it was uncertain when it would be available, if ever. I also was not prepared to pay Model S prices and the Supercharging network was still a twinkle in Elon's eye. The LEAF wasn't going to give me the range I wanted and I was skeptical about their battery pack design.

The Volt seemed like the practical next step and so I bought my first GM vehicle. Before that I had owned 3 Toyotas including the 1st and 2nd gen Prius, a Honda Accord, and a Ford Ranger compact pickup truck.

After 6 years and 143,000 miles my Volt was ready for semi-retirement and I was finally in the market for a 200+ mile all-electric car. GM did a good job with engineering the Volt. Nissan screwed up the LEAF battery pack and has been silent about future 200+ mile EVs. Tesla has an awesome sounding Model 3 in the works but its mass production timing is somewhat uncertain and they have a rocky reputation for initial build quality on new models. I have more of a utilitarian outlook so the Bolt's hatchback design is a plus for me. I'd like to get high quality automated driving support in a future car but I'm unsure if Tesla has picked the right hardware for AP 2.0 and we won't know for awhile until the software arrives and settles in. The Bolt EV is available now in my price range and it checks the boxes on my requirements at the moment. I'm more confident that GM will get these early built cars right. CCS is adequate in my high frequency long-range driving routes today and I see a path for rapid improvement via state grants and VW dieselgate money. So, I got one.

It seems likely at this point that my next vehicle purchase will not be from GM since there will be many more 200+ mile EV vehicle options by then and Tesla's Model 3 or Y and their automated driving hardware and software story may have settled down by then. All things being reasonably equal, I would tilt in favor of buying a Tesla because I love what they are doing to push the market and the technology forward and they are a local hometown company.

I don't see a significant conflict between buying GM EVs that are the best practical option for me at the time I am purchasing them and my general interest in overall EV adoption.

I try to evaluate vehicles and technology on their own terms based on factual information and even-handed analysis. I would rather be correct than score short-term debating points or spin on behalf of particular ideologies. I'm not perfect but when I occasionally look back on my earlier writing I'm happy with my track record.

As far as "GM's support of anti-competitive practices against Tesla" it doesn't seem to have had much effect yet. I think GM is right to be worried about Tesla's long-term competitive threat to GM. One aspect of that is the dealership franchise laws.

In the long run, it seems unreasonable for Tesla to be able to sell cars directly while GM and other longer-established companies do not have that option due to dealership owner political influence in state legislatures. That will have to be worked out. GM sees that they are stuck with these restrictions, at least for awhile, so they are seeking to stick Tesla with the same restrictions or at least prevent Tesla from obtaining a permanent advantage. I don't find that surprising.

I'm not much of an expert on this topic, but my gut feeling is that car companies should be allowed to direct sell any product anywhere just like any other kind of product. If independent dealerships are actually a useful business model then they ought to be able to compete within an open market and car companies should want to work with them in market areas where that makes sense. For example, computer companies both sell directly to customers and also sell indirectly through resellers who specialize in working with customers in various specialty markets or non-urban areas. Reforming state laws in this area is inherently going to be messy and extended. I don't blame GM for looking out for their own long-term interests. I think Tesla will be a major competitive threat to them.
 
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Thanks for the answer Jeff.
I'll read it again later, but I have to admit that for now I cannot follow a logical consistency.
As far as "GM's support of anti-competitive practices against Tesla" it doesn't seem to have had much effect yet.
How did you arrive at that conclusion ? I don't see any easy way to answer what would have been without GM sponsored and paid for political sandbagging. A minimum would be the time, effort and money Tesla has spent to fight it.

I would understand a person who supports a restriction removal on GM (and others) from direct marketing, although I also understand those who would say that is a breach of contract with their franchisees. Either way that is a fight between GM and it's partners and in no way should harm Tesla. I completely agree that GM would be wise to compete with Tesla to protect it's financial position, but anti-competitive practices is not competition. It says so, right in the name.
 
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Thanks for the answer Jeff.
I'll read it again later, but I have to admit that for now I cannot follow a logical consistency.
How did you arrive at that conclusion ? I don't see any easy way to answer what would have been without GM sponsored and paid for political sandbagging. A minimum would be the time, effort and money Tesla has spent to fight it.

I would understand a person who supports a restriction removal on GM (and others) from direct marketing, although I also understand those who would say that is a breach of contract with their franchisees. Either way that is a fight between GM and it's partners and in no way should harm Tesla. I completely agree that GM would be wise to compete with Tesla to protect it's financial position, but anti-competitive practices is not competition. It says so, right in the name.
Competitive means playing on the same terms.

Since, in the short-term, GM is apparently forced to distribute via dealer franchisees, they are seeking in some states to force Tesla to do the same as I understand things. If the franchise contract itself prohibits GM from direct sales in a particular region I don't understand why there is any need for special state laws to regulate in addition to or beyond what the actual written contracts cover. I have no idea what the terms and conditions of GM's existing franchise contracts are but my impression is that some state laws mandate that car sales occur via intermediary dealerships. As I said, I'm not an expert in this area.

I'm certain that Tesla is capable of finding motivated dealers in those states -- after all, Yugo and Coda had dealers at one time and Tesla is a far more compelling business proposition. Tesla just doesn't want to go that route for understandable reasons and so is holding a firm line and insisting on direct sales in all states.

I may well be missing important parts of the story here. I personally care more about the technology and tend to snooze when lease terms or franchise laws are discussed. I will try to learn more about this because I realize it is important.
 
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As far as "GM's support of anti-competitive practices against Tesla" it doesn't seem to have had much effect yet. I think GM is right to be worried about Tesla's long-term competitive threat to GM. One aspect of that is the dealership franchise laws.

In the long run, it seems unreasonable for Tesla to be able to sell cars directly while GM and other longer-established companies do not have that option due to dealership owner political influence in state legislatures. That will have to be worked out. GM sees that they are stuck with these restrictions, at least for awhile, so they are seeking to stick Tesla with the same restrictions or at least prevent Tesla from obtaining a permanent advantage. I don't find that surprising.
No. It is not 'unreasonable' at all. The way that franchise laws governing the sale of new cars were originally crafted in States like Texas and Michigan is that they offered automobile manufacturers a choice.

They could choose to: 1) Become a Franchisor that sold to 'independent franchised dealerships' exclusively; or 2) Sell Direct to end users. But they absolutely could not do both at once, because it was feared that would lead to 'unfair competition' within the brand. And, once a company became a Franchisor they had to remain that way in perpetuity.

Tesla simply made the completely legal choice that no one else was willing to make, by deciding that the fate of their own business was best suited to their own hands. If anything, it is 'unreasonable' to expect they should make any other choice, given the pitiful performance of the 'franchised dealership system' with selling plug-in cars of any type. And the fact it had been 90 years or so since any American automotive startup had been successful in reaching and maintaining mass market sales using 'independent franchised dealerships'.

No one anywhere complained about Tesla selling direct when it took them three years to sell around 2500 cars worldwide. Everyone was saying that Tesla was foolhardy at best and a scam at worst. And those same statements were typically followed up by claims they would go belly up, file for bankruptcy, 'any day now' for years on end. Even if Tesla had approached dealers back then they may have been blown off and shown the door.

That changed when the Model S arrived to critical acclaim. It won the MOTOR TREND and AUTOMOBILE magazine Car of the Year... Was called 'the best car we have ever tested' by Consumer Reports... It received the highest rating EVER for NHTSA crash testing... And became the best selling car in class by early 2013.

This got the attention of 'independent franchised dealerships' who all of a sudden wanted to become Tesla franchises. Tesla entertained their calls, but could not come to terms, because none of them wanted to buy in bulk or adopt Tesla's sales and service policies & procedures. Worse yet, Tesla learned they didn't have to.

The franchise laws for new car sales were entirely separate from those covering other types of businesses. Elon once said he would happily set up a sort of hybrid franchise system, a new kind of franchise where the rules and provisions were set up to everyone's benefit within a contract agreed upon by both parties. In particular, he would LOVE to set up a franchise system like McDonald's -- where every aspect of daily operations at retail locations was determined by the Franchisor at the corporate level.

The problem was that franchise laws for new car sales specifically outlawed that type of control. Even if someone had signed a contract to that effect to become a Franchisee they didn't have to honor those provisions at all. The State law held precedence over the contracts themselves.

GM, Ford, Chrysler, AUDI, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and all the rest are STUCK in the sticky mouse trap of 'independent franchised dealerships'. For them, there is no escape. Ever.

GM, Ford, and Chrysler all know now that their dustribution network is set up all wrong. But there is nothing they can do to fix it. They aren't allowed to close or move or enlarge or trim down or open any new sites for their own benefit.

The claim by the 'independent franchised dealerships' is that Tesla would 'sell more cars' using them. But none of them can explain why the Model S outsells so many of their cars that cost less than $40,000. None if them want to admit the truth: Direct Sales have proven to be more efficient and effective than using 'independent franchised dealerships'. Tesla only has about 100 locations in the U.S. But though Cadillac has over 900 locations, every single passenger car they offered during 2016 was outsold by the Model S.

What NADA has argued is that it is 'unfair' for Tesla to have a 'monopoly' on selling their own cars. They say it doesn't allow for intrabrand competition, and thus should not be allowed. The Federal Trade Commission has said that in the absence of Intrabrand competition, Interbrand competition is sufficient. And with the HUNDREDS of locations for GM, Ford, and Chrysler across States like Texas, Michigan, and Indiana, among others, there is PLENTY of Interbrand competition among domestic automakers, before you even begin to count foreign marques. And, no one else has ever been limited by law as to the total number of locations they can operate in auto sales within a State. But extremely low limitations, between 1 and 5, have been set for Tesla, in those States that don't set their maximum influence at ZERO locations.

That is patently unfair. You know, like someone saying that being monogamous means that you DON'T have sex with anyone -- but one person. No. Being monogamous means that you DO have sex with one person. Why would two people choose to be mutually celibate -- together? That makes no sense.

There are some States with very few Acura, AUDI, Infiniti, Lexus, or Mercedes-Benz locations. Those were choices made by those manufacturers to maximize distribution of their vehicles as they see fit. None of them were mandated by the State to have so few sites. And none of them were banned outright for selling a legal product in those States in the legal manner of their choice. And their competitors didn't seek legislation or injunctions to limit the expansion of the availability of those brands.

Similarly, no one at Winchell's or Dunkin' Donuts sought legal means to 'protect' consumers from the unchecked expansion of Starbucks or Krispy-Kreme. And Apple Stores didn't sue Microsoft for NOT offering the iMac and iPad in Microsoft Stores. And neither Walmart nor Best Buy have lodged legal protests against Microsoft for selling XBOX ONE in their own retail stores. And DELL Computer is still able to sell direct through mail order or their website even though the same products are offered through independent retailers.

So, why is it unfair for Tesla to sell the cars they design and build? What makes it so urgent to remove a choice that had been in place and offered to every automobile manufacturer for decades before Tesla was founded?

Something tells me a lot of people didn't quite get the moral of the story, 'The Little Red Hen'. It is one thing to offer a choice for decades, and another entirely to remove that choice because an unpopular decision is made. Tesla isn't lobbying to dismantle the 'franchise dealership system' at all. They argue they shouldn't have to become a part of it as a mandate. And just because their choice today is to NOT sell through franchises does not mean they don't have the option of doing so later. If certain conditions were met, I'm sure they might consider the option again.
 
No. It is not 'unreasonable' at all. The way that franchise laws governing the sale of new cars were originally crafted in States like Texas and Michigan is that they offered automobile manufacturers a choice.
I think we both agree that these kinds of state franchise laws are themselves uncompetitive, violate open market principles, are maintained due to dealer political influence over state legislators, and need to be repealed.

It's obviously crazy for vehicle sale and distribution decisions made 90 years ago to be enforced in perpetuity regardless of how any other product type is sold. I'm in complete agreement that these laws need to be shredded. However, it is within the legal authority of states to micromanage the economy like this. Many of these states have Republican dominated legislatures but they seem oddly uninterested in promoting free market economics when it comes to new car sales.

I still think it's unreasonable in the long-term for a successful Tesla to directly sell millions of cars per year to customers while other car makers are forced to distribute via dealerships. Screw that.

These state-enforced perpetual automotive dealership arrangements need to be crushed, ground down to a fine paste, and the resulting slurry flushed into the nearby waste treatment plant.

All car makers should be free to do sales on an equal footing based on the market economics of today and next year rather than what might or might not have made sense in 1927.
 
Competitive means playing on the same terms.
GM chose to franchise. If they are unhappy with the arrangement today they can negotiate with their dealerships to get out of the contract.

Tesla has the same option to franchise. They choose (so far) not to.

THAT is a level playing field. If GM entered into a bad contract without legal remedy, well that fault lies with one company only, and its name is not Tesla. And of course GM can use its lobbying power to change the politics of state auto franchisees.
 
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Competitive means playing on the same terms.
Yes. And upon entering the market, those terms allowed that Tesla had a choice: 1) Use franchises; or 2) Sell Direct. It was the 'independent franchised dealerships' that acted through crony capitalism, to change the terms so that choice was no longer available after the fact. That is unfair. Especially in those States that chose to both limit the expansion of Tesla while simultaneously 'grandfathering' them and locking the door behind them, so no one else could enter the market without using franchises.

The original purpose of franchise laws was to protect franchisees from franchisors. It was not to mandate the use of franchises. Tesla is perfectly within their rights to point out that difference and act to reverse the changes made to purposely block what was before a perfectly legal chosen means of product distribution.

You have fallen for the narrative of NADA and its members that it is Tesla that wants to 'change the rules' when it was they that did it already. Tesla wants the rules reset to what they were. Something that allows choice -- particularly their preferred choice -- direct sales.

Baseball is not a sport. The MLB argued as much in an antitrust case in the early 1970s. You'll notice that newscasters often query players about how they feel about 'the sport of baseball'. Without fail, no one who has played ever refers to it as a 'sport'. They just don't use the word at all. Ever. Even if they have been retired for decades. And it seems that agents have become adept at training fresh recruits and draft prospects with the same behavior. Instead of 'the sport' they will repeatedly state, in a corrective tone aimed at the interviewer, that they play 'the game' of baseball. Because if you want to have a hope of getting a lucrative contract, or keeping one, or being traded to another team for big bucks, or even being inducted to the Hall of Fame some day, you absolutely positively must NEVER call baseball a 'sport' -- EVER.

NADA is full of baseball fans. Baseball is not played on an even playing field. The best odds for the offense is 4 against 9. Most of the time it is a 1:9 ratio. That doesn't even get into the fact there is no such thing as an 'outside corner' at home plate, or that you don't have to actually touch second base or tag someone there to get an out. You know what? Baseball is not a sport. And the absolute last thing on Earth that 'independent franchised dealerships' are interested in is fairness. It's all about... The GAME.
 
THAT is a level playing field. If GM entered into a bad contract without legal remedy, well that fault lies with one company only, and its name is not Tesla. And of course GM can use its lobbying power to change the politics of state auto franchisees.
Sorry, I think it's absurd if companies are forced to follow different sales strategies in perpetuity based upon which century they were incorporated.

I actually doubt that GM has enough lobbying leverage outside of Michigan to force the dismantling of state automobile franchise laws. It's one thing for them to lobby in alliance with the existing state-level dealer power structure. It's quite another for them to fight the dealer power structure in the legislature.

I'm confident the dealers would dominate unless some grand automaker alliance was formed along with various national political and market ideology forces to clean house in state legislatures. Someday it may happen but it will be messy. In the short run, companies like GM may unsurprisingly choose to lash the dealership collar on Tesla instead.

You have fallen for the narrative of NADA and its members that it is Tesla that wants to 'change the rules' when it was they that did it already.
No, I don't think I ever said that Tesla was trying to change the rules.

I said that enforced franchisement in perpetuity is messed up and needs to change but that's hard to do for various reasons.
 
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Contracts are binding in their particulars. That is why we have them.
Laws are passed all the time that invalidate or modify the enforcement of aspects of contracts.

Contracts should be stable and reliable but that doesn't mean they should be frozen in perpetuity. That's goofy.

In any case, as I said, I have no idea what these franchise contracts actually look like or how their terms extend. I was mostly commenting on state laws that apparently reach beyond privately negotiated contracts to require or regulate in ways that force franchise requirements on manufacturers.

Or perhaps you think any home bought before year 2000 is now not the owners since it is a new century ?
A sales contract for a house is an arrangement for transferring the title. Once the title is transferred the sales contract has been executed. Of course, there are home owners association rules or title covenants that are binding on the new title owners. State laws are known to modify those arrangements.

Home titles used to be sometimes limited to transfer only between certain ethnic or religious identities but that is no longer enforceable -- that's just so last century!
 
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Contracts should be stable and reliable but that doesn't mean they should be frozen in perpetuity
They are binding, unless laws pass to invalidate them or the parties to the contract agree to change the terms.
GM has an army of lawyers. I'll guess they know this.

About that title you have to a home ?
Flush it after one use -- it is based on a contract you think should be invalidated if signed last century.
And even if you bought the home this century, if was built last century you "bought" a home from someone who does not have the right to sell it.

Your world view. Just keep on flushing.
 
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No, I don't think I ever said that Tesla was trying to change the rules.
Hmmm... It sure seemed as if you were saying that. Perhaps I misunderstood the particular sentence I have in mind...?

I said that enforced franchisement in perpetuity is messed up and needs to change but that's hard to do for various reasons.
When General Motors emerged from bankruptcy they were a 'new entity'. They could have dumped all of the franchises of the prior entity and started over. It won't be any easier to do so again, unless they go bankrupt again.

The U.S. Government had placed as a provision of the bailout that GM reduce the number of Divisions and dealership locations anyway. They did cut back on Divisions, and shut down a lot of dealerships, but GM still seems to have more than anyone else. By comparison, Ford apparently began to cut back on sales locations beginning around four years before the financial collapse in 2008.

There was a report in 2009 from the United States Department of Justice that outlined precisely why direct sales may be to the advantage of manufacturers and consumers alike going forward. GM had well paid lawyers as does Tesla, and if the smaller company could see the trap and move to avoid it so could have GM. They didn't. They did it to themselves. Willingly.

I call this to your attention because you may not have realized the context of your prior statement could be 'read' more than one way. You have since explained yourself in more detail, but initially it seemed you were chastising Tesla's ability to continue selling direct. It seems you are instead chastising the inability of other OEMs to sell direct. I would have phrased that sentiment differently.

There is an interesting perspective on ownership of an 'independent franchised dealership' at this link:
 
@Jeff N -- OK, I think I found the part that concerned me. Apparently I read it out of context partially. You wrote:
"If the franchise contract itself prohibits GM from direct sales in a particular region I don't understand why there is any need for special state laws to regulate in addition to or beyond what the actual written contracts cover."

And it was this part that raised my ire:
"...I don't understand why there is any need for special state laws..."

My mistake was not taking the time to go back and read the whole thing. You were speaking of GM's relationship to its franchises. I mistakenly thought this portion was directed at having an 'escape clause' for Tesla, as some have said elsewhere. I apologize for that misunderstanding.

So, it seems we do agree after all. :D

The belt-and-suspenders-plus-leg-irons-with-ball-and-chain nature of franchise laws governing the sale of new cars is positively archaic and replete with protectionism and crony capitalism at its very core. It sucks. Adults enter these contracts with more than sufficient legal representation. There is no need for additional representation for the interests of 'the little guy' through the institution of this parallel, but segregated, set of franchise laws. Especially since the conglomerates that own 'independent franchised dealerships' are not exactly Mom & Pop organizations anymore, but gigantic multinational firms. Penske Automotive Group (PAG) is huge, AutoNation (AN) is gigantic, and Berkshire Hathaway (BRK-A) is no pushover.
 
[QUOTE=" ...the Bolt is doomed to being a marginal, bit player!

May be, all other EVs are not as cute as the Model 3, but all provide a practical hatch back.

When you live in a city, you need a small car, with a lot of trunk size.
You don't care about having a panoramic back window.

Chevrolet_Bolt-Trunk.jpg
[/QUOTE]

Eams plywood? Niiice
 
There is, however, another factor. When one buys a Nissan Leaf, it comes with a bunch of free charging at EvGO stations here (perhaps others too), so I'm seeing a number of local Leafs at the new DCFC here in town. Out of town folks, yes, but there is increased traffic by locals because it's free. That may be a local or regional offer, but it's the kind of thing that can easily swamp the availability of charging spots. And there's nothing one can do about it (unlike Tesla's actions re the Super Charger network).

Of course. But my point was that with a large battery EV charging at home is often sufficient for everything but road trips (assuming home or work charging possible). With a smaller car like Bolt roadtrips may not be that common anyway.
 
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Once I get my Model 3, I plan on buying a whole bunch of different 220/240 adapters, so I can plug in wherever I can find a higher-voltage plug. I'm not overly concerned about it. Yes, driving an EV long distances requires a little more planning and foresight than an ICE at the moment, but nothing insurmountable if you're prepared for it.
This is true. And that was part of the plan for many of us in the wild frontier days before the supercharger build out in many areas. And it's still a good idea to have them if needed.

But be advised: the difference between high-power DC fast charging @ 100+kW, and a 7kW RV plug at a campground can mean the difference between a day trip and a multi-day sojourn.
 
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