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Pre-AP S Pricing In The Model 3 Era

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After listening to The Tesla Show review a Model 3 I was struck by their opinion that given the choice between an S and a 3 they would take the 3. Not everyone is going to feel the same way, but I do think that the 3 creates a price cap on Pre-AP S as the 3 outclasses the pre-AP S in every category except size. As 3 production ramps up I think older S prices are going to take a nosedive. If the EV tax credit survives it's going to be even harder to justify a used S for early 3 reservation holders.

S vs 3.png
 
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I've thought about this a lot, and I agree with some of this logic. I know you are purely debating pre-AP, and I agree with what you have laid out. I think these will be a tough sell in about 1 year from now. But the tax credit will go away for Tesla soon. It will either die in congress, or Tesla will hit 200,000 and it will half. It's anyone's guess how many Model 3 owners will truly get the credit. Pre AP1 cars can be found for < $50K w/ the same 4-year/50K warranty (I bought one). I can no longer wait for the 3, like a bigger car, needed AP, etc. I would argue that if you need a car now, I would think strongly that AP is key. I think we both agree there.
 
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I have this feeling that price difference is going to happen soon. And I think there is a customer market of people who buy used but still want something for value at not a crazy high price. I really think preAP 60s/85s will be 25/28k soon. Of course they will probably be limited bells and whistles. I for one, will purchase at that price.
 
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Yes, smaller on the exterior, but bigger on the interior.

So the interior seating room is larger in the 3 than the S? In the trunk it's not. That's what is starting to turn me off to the 3 is that for a family of 3 (will be 4 in the coming years) I don't know that the storage in the 3 would be enough for a full family trip just about anywhere. I did get some up close time with a Model 3 this week and Loved everything else, but was disappointed in that trunk space. The Model S has that good trunk + bigger frunk.
 
So the interior seating room is larger in the 3 than the S? In the trunk it's not. That's what is starting to turn me off to the 3 is that for a family of 3 (will be 4 in the coming years) I don't know that the storage in the 3 would be enough for a full family trip just about anywhere. I did get some up close time with a Model 3 this week and Loved everything else, but was disappointed in that trunk space. The Model S has that good trunk + bigger frunk.
I agree that trunk+frunk is much larger in the MS compared to the TM3. The question becomes would you be better served by purchasing a TM3 with a larger passenger compartment for a family of 4 and just rent a MS for the couple of times a year you may need more trunk space or if you need LOTS of space and storage, just purchase an MX.
 
More details on the 3 vs X and S here - the storage space is tight: the 3 only has 15 CF including the frunk, vs 69.5 CF for the S and 88.1 CF for the X. Also no hatchback killed the deal for us - waiting for the Y - frankly they should have launched that first.

My Miata has 5 CF in the trunk my comparison - which is little smaller than the frunk in my S.

Could care less about AP, sticking with my P85+ until they come out with a a real SUV or a competitor does.

BMW 3 sedan: 13.0 cu ft
BMW 3 GT: 24.6 cu ft
BMW X3: 27.6 cu ft

Tesla Model S: 26.3 cu ft/ 69.5 with seats down
Tesla Model X: 28 cu ft/ 88.1 with seats down
 
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I have this feeling that price difference is going to happen soon. And I think there is a customer market of people who buy used but still want something for value at not a crazy high price. I really think preAP 60s/85s will be 25/28k soon. Of course they will probably be limited bells and whistles. I for one, will purchase at that price.

This is what I'm really curious to see. I have a Sept. 14 pre-AP and rarer-than-Founder Series-non-Tech-package 85. I figure my reservation for the 3 will come up some time mid-2018. I want to reduce my monthly payment so I'm very interested to see how much I will be able to get for my S then and, therefore, what that would do to my final price of a maxed out 3.

But this is what I've been saying since the beginning when folks were crowing about how Teslas would keep their values so well. I see them as much more like cell phones. When Elon is innovating and adding features yearly, last year's models drop in value quickly. (Although going forward, there's probably fewer big jumps they'll be able to make compared to the first 2-4 years of the S.)
 
You can currently get an pre-AP s85 used in the $35k-$40k range if you don't mind high-mileage. At that price, and considering the $7.5k in US might be going away for deliveries after the end of the year you could get a model s for approximately the same price as a base model 3 after delivery fee. At that point you are getting:

* Free supercharging for life
* 3-4 year battery/motor unlimited mile warranty
* More cargo space (huge frunk since pre-D)
* Extra range (~255 mile range vs 220)
* 2 screens instead of 1
* Hatchback
* Panoramic roof (on almost all 85's)
* Power lift gate / Tech package (on almost all 85's)
* Other possible features depending on which 85 (parking sensors, cold weather pkg, premium sound...)

Not to say there aren't a lot of upsides to a model 3, just depends on what you are looking for. For me, someone looking to do a lot of road trips, the free charging, unl mile warranty and cargo space are very welcome. I would probably run through the model 3 warranty pretty fast if had it. I completely understand those who think model 3 is a no brainer over a pre-AP model s though, there is a lot to like.
 
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Technology advancements do NOT tend to slow down. If they continue to be more reliable than ICE cars, than that should help prop up the residual value.

True, but I think that is easier for technical hardware or completely new industries to continue innovating at high rates than more established areas. E.g. cell phones again, the first iPhone was huge improvement over previous smartphones, but apart from the hardware specs (e.g. storage, processor speed, screen size/resolution) there haven't been many big innovations in the last few iterations)

I'm not sure what the next big thing is after FSD (which, IMO, is still more than a few years off). Little bit faster, little bit bigger range...what's left? Flying? They'll fit into a hyperloop? :) I feel like the slice of buyers S buyers who are interested for the tech/environmental aspects has been largely tapped and all the growth will be in the luxury car segment of people who just want the coolest $100k+ car they can get.

The marginal improvement in reliability over other well-made (perhaps even better made) luxury ICE doesn't seem that big to me.

Of course, I could just be bitter because the sole improvement I've experienced in 3 years for my non-tech S has been 2 little white lines on my backup camera. :)
 
You forgot one other data point. If I want a Tesla right NOW, I can buy from several outstanding Pre AP MS cars. If I want a Model 3, I can order it right now, but get it....well, who knows yet? I decided I did not want AP and bought my MS about a month after the reservations were taken for the Model 3s last year. My smile has been wide for a long time now. :) That M3 smile probably won't start for a long time now. ;)
 
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By the time Model 3 is actually available to a new buyer, the youngest Model S without AP will be 5 years old and oldest Model 3's will be 2 years old, so yes, non-P, non-AP Model S will probably go for same or less than a new Model 3.

AP is really not all that it's cracked up to be, in two years AP2 will be forgotten by Tesla (the AP2 car will be capable of FSD, but not the sensors or whatever other BS Tesla will come up with, like when they delivered a car was speced at 691hp but delivered 463hp instead and Tesla's excuse was that the motors were capable but not the battery or the fuse or the wiring). If new Model 3 in 2 years actually has full FSD, then absolutely, expect all non-FSD cars (not just Teslas) to drop in price, but that's a long shot at best. Until full FSD, AP/EAP is not going to be a large price driver, like @kev1n and @Olds442 said, at the current capabilities of AP1/2 there are plenty of people who don't want it or at least don't care. Heck, our latest Model S has the AP2 hardware but for us EAP or FSD is not worth it at all, so we won't pay for it until the car can drive me to the airport (50 miles), drive itself back home, park, then come pick me up at the end of the week - assuming no severe weather and that someone will plug it in when it's in the garage at home. Oh, and of course assuming we are still alive when that happens.