Daniel in SD
(supervised)
Safety is relative. It sounds like you didn't read the explanation of why the scenario you're suggesting is nearly impossible.
If you're still concerned about this scenario then you should use the keycard.
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PSA: Use PIN-To-Drive or Keycard if you have small children
- Thread starter AlanSubie4Life
- Start date
The reason I disagreed with it is that I interpreted what you were saying as follows: If your very small child memorizes your PIN, they will still be able to run you over, so the risk is not really reduced much with PIN-to-drive.
That is factually untrue (see explanation above). A toddler is extremely unlikely to be be able to run you over with PIN to drive on, even if they memorize the code. Again, see the explanation of the protections & additional interlocks above. I'm not saying it is impossible, but the probability is dramatically less. If you can explain what you meant, and I misinterpreted what you meant, I am happy to remove the disagree.
I actually think you fail to see the larger discussion. We all agree we want a safe car and don’t want to be run over, we just disagree on the required lengths to get there.
We all fall somewhere on a spectrum in this debate. You are clearly on the more precautionary side of the spectrum than I. I choose to maintain more convenience and instead opt to apply other safeguards...yet that’s inviting murphy and leaving a loaded gun laying around the house. That’s fine.
However, when I jump further towards precaution on the spectrum than you and suggest something even more safe than you...that’s too much!
I find the whole discussion humorous.
We all fall somewhere on a spectrum in this debate. You are clearly on the more precautionary side of the spectrum than I. I choose to maintain more convenience and instead opt to apply other safeguards...yet that’s inviting murphy and leaving a loaded gun laying around the house. That’s fine.
However, when I jump further towards precaution on the spectrum than you and suggest something even more safe than you...that’s too much!
I find the whole discussion humorous.
A specific case I have mentioned above: One parent goes into a store. Car is parked outside. The other parent stays behind in the front passenger seat, with their toddler child (with phone key in purse or pocket). We have been conditioned in this case to think that when we are watching the child, and there is no "key" in the ignition, the car will not go. There is simply no way for a child to turn on the car and shift to drive in any reasonable timeframe (and in some cases, it is not physically possible due to distance from the brake to the shift lever).
They get toddler out of the car seat. The toddler wants to roam around the car. The other parent doesn't think this is a big issue, child transitions to the driver seat and is happy. Supervised. Toddler suddenly slides into the footwell. Parent scolds child, reaches over to grab child. Child flails, kicks brake, and either the toddler or the parent hits the shift lever down, shifting the car to Drive. The child then kicks the accelerator. Off the car goes. Who knows where it will go...
This is a case where a fairly well supervised child (not perfect, mind you) could recreate the situation.
Is this that probable? No, not really. Could it happen? Is it conceivable? Yes. Will PIN-to-drive eliminate all potential risk in this case? Yes.
The particular post you quoted from me is not quite correct - there is a "gap" in PIN-to-drive coverage, though obviously not significant (due to the other things required with PIN-to-drive). If the door is closed, AND the toddler knew your PIN, they could crawl down, press the brake, go up, type in your PIN, slide back down, and then follow the standard sequence. I think that is possible, anyway. If the driver door is open, this will not work. Obviously, the probability of a toddler both memorizing your PIN and following this exact sequence is dramatically less likely than the probability of a toddler driving the car without PIN-to-drive.
Ok, I understand what you are saying. I will remove the disagree. However, I think with everything, it is a tradeoff. I see a pretty clear risk when PIN-to-drive is off; it is far from minimal and I believe the Model 3 is likely the easiest vehicle for a child to get to move. That window of risk is dramatically reduced due to the additional interlocks when it is turned on (described in prior posts) - Model 3 becomes likely the safest vehicle in this regard. PIN-to-drive is minimal overhead for the group that has risk (especially with 16.2 which so far has eliminated the lag I was complaining about). I think the additional protection of changing the PIN every drive is minimal, the cost is very high, and the probability of compliance is low (so is unlikely to even provide the minimal additional protection you think it provides).
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Daniel in SD
(supervised)
It's up to you to decide for yourself how likely OPs scenario is. It is far more likely in a Model 3 than in any other modern vehicle I'm aware of. It is important for people the understand what having a car that is always "on" means. Many people are used to traditional vehicles that can be turned off.
I never said it was too much, I just said that it was nearly impossible based on my understanding of how the car works. If someone is still concerned about it they should use the keycard.
...Failure of parent to appropriately assess risk...
Just being argumentative.
while I am being argumentative...murphy could make you have a brain fart and cause you to forget your PIN at a critical time. Its all about assessing risk and finding what you are comfortable with as a parent. Just because one person sees a "safety concern" doesn't mean it applies to everyone.
Sure, but don't you think that all parents should be aware of the possible concern, which I would argue is not obvious (see prior posts in this thread for a bunch of Tesla owners who were not aware it was possible)? Please spread the word to owners you know who have small children, even if you have no children yourself, or have assessed it to not be a risk for you (for you the risk is already dramatically reduced even if you do have children - because you know about the potential risk as compared to other vehicles).
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I actually admire your passion about this. Thanks for that.
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
Which happens all the time. Just took at the amount of confusion in this thread. People often assess risk based on past experience and information from other people. They're not just looking at every situation with a fresh set of eyes. In their previous vehicle it may have been perfectly safe for a toddler to crawl into the drivers seat while they're sitting in the passenger seat.
A bit off topic, but I recall in my earlier ownership of our Model 3 that it would sometimes detect a rolling condition and then enable the emergency parking brakes. I have not seen this occur again in the last few months even though I've rolled since. I got involved with a Kickstarter a few years back that involved energy storage (similar to the Powerwall) - the founder of that project was tragically killed when he attempted to stop a rolling vehicle. Orison tower - Seems like a good safety feature, but I'm not sure if its functionality has changed. When it happened to me, I was still seated in the driver seat.
The rollaway protection requires at least 2 out of 3 conditions to be bad: seat belt, driver door, and occupancy sensor. Any one condition is not enough. That is quite reasonable except for the “defeat” - which is basically the whole issue of discussion here.
You likely have not triggered the protection recently. It likely works fine, again with the exception of the “defeat” (acceleration application).
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Knightshade
Well-Known Member
This reminds me a bit from Bill Engvall where he's discussing the barbie whose roller skates gave off sparks-he saw on the news one night:
"What if Barbie rollerskated through a pool of gasoline?"
His reply-
"What if Barbie had a hand grenade? Is that a common household problem now?"[/QUOTE]
This isn't a problem unique to Tesla- there's plenty of examples of kids running over people in ICE cars too- for example-
7-year-old accidentally runs over little sister in family car
Ford Focus
12-year-old girl accidentally runs over, kills brother, 2, authorities say
Chevy SUV
Boy, 4, accidentally runs over, kills newborn brother with family minivan
Minivan (I think it's a Chrysler)
Boy, 6, Pinned By Car After Brother, 4, Tried To Drive
Chevy Sedan
Don't allow little kids in the drivers seat of a 2 ton mobile machine. End of problem.
This isn't a problem unique to Tesla- there's plenty of examples of kids running over people in ICE cars too- for example-
7-year-old accidentally runs over little sister in family car
Ford Focus
12-year-old girl accidentally runs over, kills brother, 2, authorities say
Chevy SUV
Boy, 4, accidentally runs over, kills newborn brother with family minivan
Minivan (I think it's a Chrysler)
Boy, 6, Pinned By Car After Brother, 4, Tried To Drive
Chevy Sedan
Don't allow little kids in the drivers seat of a 2 ton mobile machine. End of problem.[/QUOTE]
Welcome to my first post in this thread. I agree.
For my life conditions and my boys, there’s not enough risk for me to exchange my convenience. Same with car theft, where I live I don’t worry about my car being stolen enough to trade my convenience.
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
Had the key.
Had the key.
Had the key.
Had the key.
This exactly proves the point that OP is trying to make! In effect without using PIN-to-drive you are giving your child the key.
Are you suggesting these as examples of good parenting?
Thank you for providing real-world examples of how even cars which require the user to have the key can cause deaths. Children can get into trouble sometimes! It happens. Children running family members (or anyone!) over, regardless of the vehicle used, is the last thing I want to see.
All I ask is that you spread the word to parents who have Model 3s and young children, telling them about the differences between the Model 3 and the associated interlocks, as compared to other vehicles (summarizing, it's basically two steps rather than three (neither of the steps require more than about 30 inches of height - typical 2-year-old is ~34" tall - I'm not here to debate the exact height required, though; it is sufficient to say it is in that ballpark) and they do not require the key to be in the vehicle or in the child's possession), and how PIN-to-drive can make it one of the safest vehicles from that perspective.
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And you've never heard of a little kid... having their parent's phone?!?!?
Clearly, this is a dangerous situation. It's time for a nation-wide recall of all toddlers!
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
I'm confused. Are you suggesting that it's a good idea to give your kids the keys to the car?
Kids are not going to stop being kids. Please don't give them the keys to your car!
I'm not sure what you were saying here. I definitely would not recommend giving the key to your car (your phone) to your toddler.
I would just say:
1) The child does not need the phone in his possession to turn on and drive Model 3.
2) Factually, as described in one of my posts above (Highlander/Spark EV examples), it is substantially easier for a toddler to place a Model 3 in drive and accelerate than most other modern vehicles (I won't say any vehicle, as that is likely not true). In the Model 3, in any case, it can be done in under 5 seconds by a 2-year-old, if PIN-to-drive is not enabled. And it isn't a physical stretch. (See the first post for an illustrative picture.)
Here is how.
Model 3 Rollaway Protection
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I don't see this as any different from turning on the child lock on the rear doors. Or making the child wear a seatbelt.
The adult shouldn't let the child open the doors in any case AND the child should be taught not to, and should be sensible not to. And they should be strapped in. The car's not going to get into an accident etc.etc.etc Life doesn't always work like that, so turn on the child-lock. Turn on the pin-to-drive.
Or don't if it doesn't apply to you.
