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Pure BEV Dogma
- Thread starter bonnie
- Start date
I would if it had 300 mile range and a sufficient network of 300 mph DC fast chargers that I could rely on.
There are plenty of cars that can match the Volt's ICE performance, including all of my other cars. What I said was that I did buy the Volt to get the ICE capabilities, as I already had that, and more.
GSP
You are not making any sense. ICE capabilities? WTF is that?
The reality is that the people who insist that the Volt is an EV, simply just wanted a pure EV, but did not want to pay the current price for a practical EV, so they bough a Volt, and insist it's an EV. It's a hybrid(a plug-in version), nothing less, nothing more. You didn't pay for an EV, so therefore it's not an EV. Just like If you go out and buy a cheap tablet, it's also not an Ipad. This is not meant to be elitist, as there are currently no cheap EV's that suit most people's needs. It's the current reality.
Let's face it, you bought the volt because it has an ICE in addition to the electric drivetrain. Not many people would have bought it if it didn't have the ICE.
Of course you would have bought it with an all EV 300 mile range without the ICE. Then you would have a right to call it what it is, an EV. It also wouldn't have cost as little as it did.
I actually paid quite a lot for the Volt. Not cheap transportation, but have had a lot of fun with it the past three years and it has been well worth it.
It would have been just another car without the EV capabilities. That was what was worth the extra money, and that is why I chose it over an ICE or HEV.
GSP
Peter_M
Member
Exactly. And this matches the definitions the Ontario Government uses in their EV rebate program:
"For the purposes of this program a battery electric vehicle (EV) is a vehicle that is powered by electricity and contains a battery to store energy. There are two main types of EVs: conventional hybrid electric vehicles (HEVs) and grid-connected vehicles that include plug-in hybrid battery electric vehicles (PHEVs) and battery electric vehicles (BEVs).
Unlike HEVs, PHEVs and BEVs have larger capacity batteries that can be recharged by plugging in to the electricity grid. Only new PHEVs and BEVs are eligible for the incentive program."
And they list both the Volt and the Plug-in Prius under the PHEV section in the list of eligible vehicles (even though they have different technology).
Right. Those definitions make total sense, and they are pretty easily explainable to the general public. ICE, Hybrid, Plug-in Hybrid, and EV. We can end the thread now. :tongue:
scottf200
Well-Known Member
For BEV "purist" drivers tho, I would think you would want the mass that won't go the BEV route to still be able to pick the "Plug-in Hybrid" that uses the least gas? Correct?
The Volt certainly uses the least gas because it is a BEV for the first 40. Many owners use just a scant amount of gas where as choosing another "Plug-in Hybrid" a lot more gas would be used because of distance, hard-accel, etc. (PiP, Energi, etc).
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
No we don't, they are not reclassified as something other than ICE's. A turbo charged ICE does not become an ICET. Additional descriptors are used to further define their specific performance parameters, which is exactly what many of us are saying we should do with PHEVs. Provide the actual informative data, not make up new acronyms.
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Using the least gas depends on usage patterns. Mostly short range city driving of 10 miles or less each day, coupled with a number of very long trips, and the PHEV Prius ends up using less gas than the Volt.
Okay thread didn't end. And I disagree with your assertion. I've talked to a LOT of people, having manned a booth featuring my Roadster at a major auto show. There was a Volt directly across from me, and there was no one manning that display so I got a lot of questions about it. Almost no one I talked to realized it had a gas engine and a range of over 40 miles.
Before you can even start the discussion you have to simplify the terminology so people understand what it is. Everyone understood when I told them it was a plug-in hybrid, although many were incredulous. That's how horribly GM has mangled their marketing and terminology.
Once you have them understanding what the product is, then you can talk about performance. I never bothered getting into the details of the drive train technology, because people are far more interested in what the vehicle can do than how it works. However I would contrast the performance of a plug-in Prius to a Volt, etc.
mknox
Well-Known Member
Doug_G;542599Before you can even start the discussion you have to [B said:
We've done quite a bit of social piloting with our company Volt and have found the opposite. It seems to resonate with people that it is an electric vehicle with a range-extending engine on board. When we get in to "hybrid" or "plug-in-hybrid" explanations eyes glaze over, and it gets confused with something like a Prius that has to have gasoline to run. Some plug-in hybrids can only run so fast, or accelerate so much and then the ICE is needed. You can run the Volt as a 40 mile EV with no gasoline in the tank (tried it).
I think the GM terminology is brilliant and the employees and others we loaned the car out to for a week at a time sure get it.
Unless you are explaining cars to a tribe in the Congo or the like, people are going to know what a hybrid vehicle is.
Agree. It's confusing to deny that the Volt is a hybrid but it's clarifying to describe it as a kind of hybrid that follows an EREV operating strategy -- first it's a BEV and then it's a conventional hybrid.
I've had similar experiences talking to people although at smaller EVents rather than major car shows.
Somewhat agree.
I think an important component of that conversation is the discussion of when and why the gas engine starts up. This is not strictly a performance issue. You could have a generally powerful car that could zip around on battery with strong acceleration and at high speeds but that still started the engine if you floored the accelerator. And some people, like me, would only want the engine to start when the battery is not yet empty only if I had specifically configured or enabled that possibility.
Several people here disliked or were confused by the subjectiveness of the "full-performance" aspect of EREV mentioned in GM's paper. However, "full-performance" is more descriptive than definitional much like the notion in the paper about architecting the body design to accommodate a larger battery.
The core definition of EREV in the paper is the requirement that "EREV does not need to start the engine for speed or power demands from the driver" no matter how they mash the go pedal. This is in contrast with the papers definition of a PHEV which may start battery-only but will ultimately start the engine due to speed or power demands from the driver. Ford could choose to make "EV now" the default operating strategy instead of an optional strategy in their Energi models and it would meet the definition of EREV. However, it would compare poorly against other vehicles in reviews and automotive articles and the performance would annoy drivers so Ford chose to default to a regular PHEV strategy.
It's really very simple and coherent in spite of the efforts of some here to make it seem complicated.
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Duckjybe
Member
I agree. The Volt needed a way to distinguish it from the Prius. The word "hybrid" lumps it into the same category which is confusing to the general public and diminishes the Volts added features.
It seems that only those that have driven a Volt can understand this.
mknox
Well-Known Member
When you get outside of our circles, you'd be surprised. I even had one guy spend 45 minutes arguing with me that my Model S was a hybrid because it had two power sources: the battery and the regenerative brakes! (I should have walked away from that discussion but couldn't resist!).
In our approx. two year pilot with the Volt, we loaned it out for a week at a time, tracked usage via a data logger and had the users fill out an extensive survey which included questions around their understanding of these technologies.
Clearly people had heard of the term "hybrid" because of advertising, but there was very little understanding of the nuances between "mild hybrids", "plug-in hybrids" and so forth. To the average user, a hybrid is a car that runs on gas, but has some sort of electric assist.
The idea of an EV with a range extending generator was crystal clear. People could understand and explain this in the survey. Explanations of hybrids were all over the map.
We also found a large majority of the users would consider buying an EV (either a pure BEV or a range-extended EV like the Volt) after having driven the car for a week.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Plug in hybrid clearly speaks to the Volt's added features.
I've never driven a Prius or a Volt, yet I have a clear understanding how both vehicles work.
Duckjybe
Member
Sure. But it still contains the word "hybrid" so still confusing to some.
Yes I know you do. You are a wealth of knowledge and I enjoy reading your perspective on all things EV. But you may not have an understanding of how they "feel" to drive them. And the Volt "feels" like an EV.
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