flankspeed8
Member
Tell me I am not driving an EV? I have only put in electrons for the past 10 months....
Volt Stats: Details for Volt #2014-56380 (Flankspeed)
Don't care about someones arbitrary dogma....I didn't say BEV, I said EV...
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Pure BEV Dogma
- Thread starter bonnie
- Start date
Tell me I am not driving an EV? I have only put in electrons for the past 10 months....
Volt Stats: Details for Volt #2014-56380 (Flankspeed)
Don't care about someones arbitrary dogma....I didn't say BEV, I said EV...
By using your definition, the Prius is by far the best selling EV on the market.
So no matter what the definition is, it's simply not correct. It's the best selling plug-in hybrid, not the best selling EV.
(Also, Volts still periodically run the engine even if you drive 0 miles on gas, so you haven't been running purely on electrons. You'll eventually need to refill with gas in 100% battery mode).
I you don't use the engine in the Volt for 42 days, the engine will run for 5 minutes for a self-test. It uses .03 gallons for this test. Yes, that is correct 3 one-hundredths of a gallon.
flankspeed8
Member
Considering the Prius Plug In only sold 91 units last month, it is not the best selling anything.... Well, since there has to be some concrete definition of a plug in versus EV, I guess I will leave it to the government...My Volt qualified me for a $7500 Fed tax credit, how much does a Model S qualify for? How about a Prius Plug In? The answer is $7500 and $2500 respectively. Looks like the Volt and Model S have more in common than the Prius from a government classification stand point...The Volt may not be an EV by some Tesla owner standards. I can live with that.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I think if you use that definition of EV, the Prius hybrid (not the Plug-in version) is the best selling EV (EV meaning a car with an electric drivetrain, as in BEV, PHEV, HEV, FCEV, etc). The article you linked deliberately used "plug-in" so as to not cause this confusion.
Actually if you look at history, the cut off point for the full credit was set at 16kWh (the exact same battery capacity of the original Volt). This was not a coincidence: GM lobbied to set the cut off point at that capacity.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...-30k-promise-an-unfortunate-misunderstanding/
It has nothing to do with a government definition of EV.
flankspeed8
Member
Well the Volt now has an 18.4 kwh battery so that is no longer relevant. I was using that as a comparison...For tax purposes, the government puts the Model S and the Volt in the same category, not so for the Prius type plug ins. There will never be a consensus on this.
Interesting that this thread is taking place in a forum called "Electric Vehicles"
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
It's not "BEV dogma", it's proper terminology, since you bought a hybrid because it had a gas engine. Otherwise you probably would have bought an actual EV. But, as I pointed out, there is an existing thread for this discussion, though it is unfortunately mislabeled.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Not really. For tax purposes, all three cars are in the same category. It is just that the kWh criteria for the specific credit amount was set in a way that was favorable to GM via lobbying. That GM later had their capacity upgraded does not change that the kWh designation was not borne out of some natural definition, but rather deliberate lobbying by an automaker.
GM has done similar in pushing their "EREV" terminology onto SAE, but despite GM's considerable influence in the SAE, the SAE have still not formally adopted their terminology as a technical term.
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Breezy
Member
Yeah. The dogma thread is always fun. There's 108 pages of circuitous discussion. No point in arguing it here all over again.
Drucifer
Active Member
The distinction is this. A Volt will run and operate normally at all speeds with zero gas in the tank (or the gas tank removed). A Prius will not.
Volt is an EV with a range extender - admittedly, a well integrated and integral range extender.
BMW i3 Rex is also an EV with a range extender - a much less well integrated one, however.
When I had a Volt, I had one YEAR where I used only 3 gallons of gas. Less than a lawn mower. At that rate you are really splitting hairs between the Volt and other BEVS. Try running a Prius for a year, over 10,000 miles, with 3 gallons.
We can also discuss efficiency. The Volt typically runs at 250 wH per mile. With my Model S, I typically run closer to 320 wH per Mile. The Model S uses about 2 kWh (or 24 cents a day more electricity) than My Volt did on weekdays. At that rate, it is about $80 a year or enough to buy about 30 gallons of gas. That is 10 times what I used my most efficient year. Now, if we want to get environmental, how much pollution does it create to generate approx 6000 kWh of electricity. Probably more than the 3 gallons of gas my Volt used. Much more.
Of course, there is much more "hauling a$$" with 416 horsepower than 149 horsepower. But hey, saving the planet is a side job after having a fun drive
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JRP3
Hyperactive Member
How a vehicle is used does not change the inherent nature of the vehicle's design. It was designed and built with an ICE for a reason, just as Tesla designs and builds without an ICE for a reason.
Drucifer
Active Member
Great. agreed. The Volt is an EV with a range extender integrated into it.
It was designed and built with an ICE because GM didn't want to build superchargers, because large batteries are heavy and costly, because people could do 80% of their driving on a 16 kWh battery with 10 kWh usable, and still eliminate 4 out of 5 gallons of dino juice. Not to take away from Tesla, but the The Volt is a brilliant car, and in some ways a more elegant engineering solution for real world driving where you just want to get from Boston to Florida or Dallas to Chicago without being required to take special routes and taking special stops.
Tesla is completely designed for a future state world - that is coming quickly. The Volt is built for the world of 2011 and the world of today.
And remember, 2 Volts replacing 2 ICE cars reduce fuel consumption more than 1 Tesla replacing 1 ICE car - and 2 Volts cost less than 1 MS, especially after tax credits.
What happens when one engages mountain mode when there's no gas present?
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Or... a well designed series/parallel-hybrid.
And moreso in 2016.
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Yeah in other words, some people call bovine excrement "manure" and others call it "fertilizer". How fresh is that marketing speak? Steam still coming from it?
Chevrolet Volt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
GM is acting like VW on this only difference is that they haven't admitted to it yet despite being caught.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I think the problem with Volt, especially in Europe, is size. Engine and batteries take up quite a bit of room. When sub compacts are the primary family car, the volt is small on interior space. $30-35K buys a nice Camry or Accord with more space.
The Volt, especially the 2016 Volt, upset those who insist GM and similar can't develop good BEV. It contradicts the Elon as master of the auto universe meme.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Actually it reinforces it, since the Volt is obviously not a BEV. GM and similar have developed good plugin hybrids. Congrats to them. They build hybrids because they can't or won't build good EV's.
mknox
Well-Known Member
Drucifer
Active Member
Why would one do that? You shouldn't drive when the tires are flat either.
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Maybe Electric Motor + ICE always = Hybrid.
But, the deeper question.
Is the car an EV first (with a J-1772 plug) with an ICE range extender? (e.g. Volt, BMW i3 Rex)
--or--
Is the car an ICE first (with or without a plug) with a bit of a battery assist to improve gas mileage? (Prius, Fusion Energi, Everything else)
Here is a chart to make things clearer as well.
MY CARS' CONSUMPTION
Saab 9-3 - 450 gallons / year
Volt - 10 gallons / year (avg. over year 1-2, before some road trips)
Tesla - 0 gallons / year
The numbers show that the important move was from the Saab to the Volt. The Volt to the Tesla Model S is almost a rounding error in comparison.
As far as being a fanboy, not everyone is in the Volt Hall of Fame and a former record holder for most EV miles in a day. No need to thank me, your adoration is enough
http://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/2265
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