etm33
Member
Please tell me that's 100mi each way for 3 hours total?
Otherwise....man, I don't know how people do it.
Also, I'd be pretty interested in another data point: 60F *with* heated seats on low.
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Range reduction in cold
- Thread starter cdeleo
- Start date
Please tell me that's 100mi each way for 3 hours total?
Otherwise....man, I don't know how people do it.
Also, I'd be pretty interested in another data point: 60F *with* heated seats on low.
An article I read the other day says it is best to adjust your temperature but leave it on automatic. It can waste energy if too hot with a low fan which is what we typically do in an ICE vehicle.
Can anyone confirm this with an "official" Tesla comment or hard data?
Can anyone confirm this with an "official" Tesla comment or hard data?
Best for range or best for comfort and HVAC performance? Range is best with a low fan speed because the system has to heat less outside air, but comfort is sacrificed and the windows can fog in wet weather. Comfort and wet weather performance are best in auto, but the system will use more energy. I leave it in auto and don't give it a second thought except for the rare exception when I turn on recirculate because of a smelly fossil in front of me.
Best for range is what I'm asking. Here is the article:
This Contributor & EV Owner Rents Out A Whole Fleet Of EVs On Turo
"Each and every time I rent out a car there are certain features I go over. One thing in common between all of my cars is that they use automatic climate control. I explain to each and every person not to treat this like the control in their gasoline car, and instead to just set the temperature they want the car to be, much like their house thermostat works. However, in each and every case when a car is returned, I can see that they ignored my instructions and instead used the controls like they would expect a gas car to work. If it is cold outside, the temperature will be set to the 90s, and if is hot outside, it will be set into the 50s or whatever the lowest setting is the car will go to."
"What they are essentially doing is assuming the same paradigm of how their gas car’s air conditioner works. With those, you set the temperature as hot or cold as it will go, then adjust the fan speed as needed. And that’s exactly what they are doing here. When I receive the car back, the temperature will always be set at the extreme and the fan speed set to the lowest setting. This is a very inefficient way to operate these controls and ultimately they will pay the price in range loss."
I had a long round trip and had to stop only once to supercharge when set at automatic temperature but twice when I manually set it. Every other variable seemed close to the same but I didn't keep details. Then I read this article and wonder if that could explain the difference.
This Contributor & EV Owner Rents Out A Whole Fleet Of EVs On Turo
"Each and every time I rent out a car there are certain features I go over. One thing in common between all of my cars is that they use automatic climate control. I explain to each and every person not to treat this like the control in their gasoline car, and instead to just set the temperature they want the car to be, much like their house thermostat works. However, in each and every case when a car is returned, I can see that they ignored my instructions and instead used the controls like they would expect a gas car to work. If it is cold outside, the temperature will be set to the 90s, and if is hot outside, it will be set into the 50s or whatever the lowest setting is the car will go to."
"What they are essentially doing is assuming the same paradigm of how their gas car’s air conditioner works. With those, you set the temperature as hot or cold as it will go, then adjust the fan speed as needed. And that’s exactly what they are doing here. When I receive the car back, the temperature will always be set at the extreme and the fan speed set to the lowest setting. This is a very inefficient way to operate these controls and ultimately they will pay the price in range loss."
I had a long round trip and had to stop only once to supercharge when set at automatic temperature but twice when I manually set it. Every other variable seemed close to the same but I didn't keep details. Then I read this article and wonder if that could explain the difference.
gilscales
Banned
So this might sound ridiculous coming from Southern California, I have driven a few times form Long Beach to Paso Robles (roughly 230 miles one way) during summer nights (70 plus degrees) I would average 250 to 255 wh/mi and the last time I traveled home from there I got a trip average of 282 wh/mi or about 10% range reduction in 46 degree clear weather, even a more mild drop in temperature did result in range reduction and this is the first time I noticed it.
Kermee
It's Not Easy Being Green
I wish it was 100 miles each way, 200 miles round-trip, but alas, it's a little over 50 miles each way and about 90 minutes in freeway traffic. EAP was a requirement when I ordered my Model 3 and makes the commute much more bearable to the point it was actually a huge quality of life improvement for me. Model 3 is my first vehicle with any sort of TACC, let alone Autopilot. "Normal" cruise-control is virtually worthless to me.
As for heated seats on low, that would definitely be an interesting data point. There's some confusion about how much it actually uses (I've seen anywhere from 50W to 500W), but even at 500W, that's only 0.5kWh over the course of an hour which translates to 1.5-2 miles of range. So worst case scenario of 3 hours of the butt-warmer being on, that's about 6 miles of range loss or about 2% of battery charge.
I just took a drive of about 30 miles in around freezing temperature (32 F) and my battery hasn't even wormed up completely (I had maybe a dozen dots of limited regeneration display) so yes those short trips are extremely hard on the efficiency.
And if you took ICE car it has that too but to a lesser degree. If you were able to calculate mpg for short distances you'd see huge hit as well. I'm just not sure how much steeper the leveling off is but I think that at 5 miles per trip and let the car completely cool between them you'd definitely notice it...
Also you could artificially make both EV and ICE as inefficient as you want. For example for an EV just drive it as slow as possible in as low as possible ambient temperature with the heat at max... or just drain the battery running the heater (or AC for that matter) without moving at all - zero efficiency. You could also just idle ICE in place as well till you run out of gas.
Your math is wrong. Battery range covered 51. Miles actually covered 33. 33/51 = 65% efficient. You are down 35% from what the car predicted (measured in battery loss).
26F Out. 77 MPH, Aero's Off, 30 minutes of useless preheating. 35% hit sounds about right to me.
If you want to drive 77 mph then put your Aero covers on. Nobody can see them while you're moving anyway
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If you want to drive 77 mph then put your Aero covers on. Nobody can see them while you're moving anyway
Yea, if you care how they look just take them off while parked :-D
Kermee
It's Not Easy Being Green
Sounds about right. The biggest drop I see in range reduction (from all the factors mentioned previously) is usually from 60F to 50F. Once you're under 50F, you start taking a large penalty.
Saw this today and thought it was relevant to this discussion.
How The EPA Rates An Electric Car | CleanTechnica
How The EPA Rates An Electric Car | CleanTechnica
phigment
Member
Haven't been tracking the numbers recently. But I decided to turn off heat/AC/fans yesterday to see the impact (seat heat on high, outdoor ambient around 0c). This 50 km history is all city driving. My commute is only 8km one way.
Note that without heat on I get 'rated' range.
Note that without heat on I get 'rated' range.
You young whippersnappers, in my day we drove Leafs with no TMS and we were happy with the precious 24kWh we had.
Seriously though, Tesla should have put a heat pump in these things.
Seriously though, Tesla should have put a heat pump in these things.
I agree, though I think they should have both heatpump and the resistive heater to deal with the colder climates.
Hi all! First time poster here... I'm trying to do my homework and research for a possible purchase next year. Apologies in advance if these are "go read the website ya dang newbie" questions ...
Background: I live in suburban New Jersey, single family home, park in my driveway (garage too small to accommodate parking - long story!), currently lease a Cadillac XT5 SUV, and am debating on what to do when the lease is up in September 2019. Purchase used Model X, lease new Model X, buy Model 3 outright, or lease a Model 3 (should be lease-able by then...) Lots of variables in that equation, most pressing is "would a Model 3 be large enough?" Either way, would have no issue installing a high capacity charger - 200amp service in the garage, with plenty of spare breaker slots. Easy cheesy.
I work out of my home, so don't have a daily commute. I do local driving and client visits though - average about 11,000 miles annually right now. Furthest typical client is about 35 miles each way. I fly a lot for work, so tend to drive to the airport and park there. That's about 20 miles each way, but the car may sit in the short-term garage for a few days without being on a charger.
Now, germane to the current discussion about range in cold weather .... I'm trying to keep up with the thread here but had a few questions:
#1 - let's assume a zero-degree day. Worst of the entire year. And I turn on the pre-heat function while the vehicle is hooked up to the house charger; would it pre-heat without drawing down the battery capacity? In other words - does the heater use "shore power" to run instead of depleting range from the battery?
#2 - How intense is the cabin heater? For me, I prefer to keep the vehicle at about 70 degrees via automated controls; whether it's summer or wintertime, 70 is about my sweet spot personally. Even on a zero-degree day, is that achievable?
#3 - The big question.... because it contributes directly to WAF (wife acceptance factor)... While I prefer to keep the car at 70, my wife is of the "get in and turn my side to blast-furnace temperature to melt my face off" mindset. Turned to full blast, how hot is max temp? Her current Buick Enclave tops out at about 85 degrees... anything even close in the 3? Anyone get incredibly uncomfortable with the heat on full blast? Because that's likely still not enough.
Sorry for the long message - just trying to give some background on my thought process. Trying to head off all the objections and questions now while we're still thinking about cold weather!
Thanks much everyone!
--Dennis
Background: I live in suburban New Jersey, single family home, park in my driveway (garage too small to accommodate parking - long story!), currently lease a Cadillac XT5 SUV, and am debating on what to do when the lease is up in September 2019. Purchase used Model X, lease new Model X, buy Model 3 outright, or lease a Model 3 (should be lease-able by then...) Lots of variables in that equation, most pressing is "would a Model 3 be large enough?" Either way, would have no issue installing a high capacity charger - 200amp service in the garage, with plenty of spare breaker slots. Easy cheesy.
I work out of my home, so don't have a daily commute. I do local driving and client visits though - average about 11,000 miles annually right now. Furthest typical client is about 35 miles each way. I fly a lot for work, so tend to drive to the airport and park there. That's about 20 miles each way, but the car may sit in the short-term garage for a few days without being on a charger.
Now, germane to the current discussion about range in cold weather .... I'm trying to keep up with the thread here but had a few questions:
#1 - let's assume a zero-degree day. Worst of the entire year. And I turn on the pre-heat function while the vehicle is hooked up to the house charger; would it pre-heat without drawing down the battery capacity? In other words - does the heater use "shore power" to run instead of depleting range from the battery?
#2 - How intense is the cabin heater? For me, I prefer to keep the vehicle at about 70 degrees via automated controls; whether it's summer or wintertime, 70 is about my sweet spot personally. Even on a zero-degree day, is that achievable?
#3 - The big question.... because it contributes directly to WAF (wife acceptance factor)... While I prefer to keep the car at 70, my wife is of the "get in and turn my side to blast-furnace temperature to melt my face off" mindset. Turned to full blast, how hot is max temp? Her current Buick Enclave tops out at about 85 degrees... anything even close in the 3? Anyone get incredibly uncomfortable with the heat on full blast? Because that's likely still not enough.
Sorry for the long message - just trying to give some background on my thought process. Trying to head off all the objections and questions now while we're still thinking about cold weather!
Thanks much everyone!
--Dennis
phigment
Member
1) Pre-heating will indeed use shore power instead of battery
2) 70 is no problem. It's much quicker to heat up to that temperature than a conventional car. You don't have to wait for the engine to warm up as there is a dedicated heater.
3) Can't recall what the max setting is, but on my app it moves up in increments of 0.5C. It hits 27, then the next setting is HI. So that means it's higher than 80.6F. Also, note that the driver profiles keep temperature in mind. So as long as you hit your profile, you don't have to worry about the previous user's high heat desire to overwhelm you. (you still have to select your profile on entry)
Sounds like you have a perfect use case for an EV. The Model X or Model 3 choice really depends on how much space you need, how much money you want to spend, and which one you like more (looks, features - i.e. two screens or one, SUV vs. sedan). Model 3 felt a lot more sporty to me than the Model S hence that made my choice. I also felt the Model S design (and X) were a bit dated.
It will pull current from the wall if it's connected. The suggestion from Tesla is always keep the car plugged in when available. The car will use the best power source.
It seems pretty solid to me but it's hard to quality intense. 70F seems pretty normal and I did a winter road trip with that setting and had no issues. Car warmed up relatively fast. The directional air vents were pretty neat. Actually I found it generally was too hot and ended up setting it to 19C (66) and using the seat warmer.
There are dual climate settings. I'm not sure how hot it can get - good question, I should try it out! It will definitely eat up some range but your commutes are so short it shouldn't be an issue at all.
Does she do this to keep warm? I just tell the car to be 72 - 73 degrees from my phone before we go. It's not like there are any fumes or gas, so I don't even have to open the garage door until we're finally ready to go. Heck if I know we're leaving within 45 minutes of waking up. Just turn off my alarm, and turn on the climate controls in the car.
HI means heat is on constant. No thermostat control. And it will get as warm as it can depending on conditions. LO means heat off. It will get as cold as conditions dictate.
