Resolved: second row crash test doubts

[Gear]

One quick addition:

The Model S was tested on 7/22/13.

The Model S recall was 6/19/13.

I don't know how recalls work with cars provided to government bodies for testing, but these tests happened nearly a month after the rear seat safety recall.

That's also worrying.

The recall was actually for the seat back coming loose anyway, not the seat bottom.

 

[Longhorn92]

I am not an automotive safety engineer, but I am a prospective Model S owner and enthusiast and I'd like to have answers to these questions before I go convince my SO that this is a good option for us.

I will clarify my thoughts and responses here:

1. To the argument that the vehicle would not have gotten 5 star front rating if the rear seat came detached: this is not true. Front ratings only take into account injuries to the front two passengers, NOT rear passengers. Thus, nothing that happens in the backseat has any impact on the front crash ratings as they're currently done.

2. To the argument that it was probably modified: perhaps, but why does this not happen with any other vehicle? It's fair to assume the modification and equipment used would be the same, so why does that cause ONLY the Model S' seat to fly forward?

3. While the side test rear passenger rating is 5 star -- and this is great news -- a side impact doesn't produce the same force on the backseat as the front test. Thus, while it may not have detached in the side test, it may have in the front.

That Elon puts his kids in the Model S on a regular basis is a fallacious argument.

Look, I get how quick we all want to defend or excuse the Model S. And maybe you're all right. In fact, I hope you are, because I really want one.

But right now, we have a 5 star rating that does not take into account rear safety, and a video of that rating showing the seat detaching and flying forward. This is not speculation.

What's speculation is why this happened. Someone -- whether the NHTSB or someone at Tesla -- needs to clarify what we're seeing.

My two-cents (which is worth exactly that): if someone was sitting in the back seat (and buckled of course), this would not be an issue, and the seat bottom would have stayed right under the person (people) in the back seat. In airplanes, the seat bottoms are simply attached with velcro (such that after an accident, you will easily be able to use them as floats if needed). Seat bottoms do not need to be fastened securely because they have no place to go (i.e. are locked in place) when a person is securely sitting in them.

Not that it really matters, but my bachelor's degree was in aerospace engineering, and after seeing these videos, I have absolutely no problems with my kids being in the back seat of our Model S. In fact, I truly think it is currently the safest production car on the road right now, and the back seat is likely the safest place to be in the car during an accident (this is exactly why the NHTSA tests the front seat positions for the frontal crash).

 

[Andrew]

Thrilled (but not surprised) that the Model S fared so well! Once again, I'm feeling incredibly lucky and grateful to be able to drive this car.

Regarding the rear seats... In the Front Impact video, it looks to me like the back seats were folded down? That wouldn't be surprising, considering there's so little clearance between the top of the backseat and the roof. The cameras probably would not have been able to see over the top of the seat back otherwise. (It also looks like there were some video cables coiled up, just sitting on top of the seat back, unsecured?)

Of course, that still doesn't explain why it came flying up...

 

[ckessel]

I am not an automotive safety engineer, but I am a prospective Model S owner and enthusiast and I'd like to have answers to these questions before I go convince my SO that this is a good option for us.

So, you're panicking from a few seconds of one clip where the backseat wasn't even relevant to the test being done? Panicking that crash test ratings used for years in thousands of car models somehow doesn't sufficiently cover back seat safety?

My vote is you're either chicken little or short trying to drum up negative publicity.

 

[Cutwolf]

My two-cents (which is worth exactly that): if someone was sitting in the back seat (and buckled of course), this would not be an issue, and the seat bottom would have stayed right under the person (people) in the back seat. In airplanes, the seat bottoms are simply attached with velcro (such that after an accident, you will easily be able to use them as floats if needed). Seat bottoms do not need to be fastened securely because they have no place to go (i.e. are locked in place) when a person is securely sitting in them.

Not that it really matters, but my bachelor's degree was in aerospace engineering, and after seeing these videos, I have absolutely no problems with my kids being in the back seat of our Model S. In fact, I truly think it is currently the safest production car on the road right now, and the back seat is likely the safest place to be in the car during an accident (this is exactly why the NHTSA tests the front seat positions for the frontal crash).

This would seem to make more sense if the entire backseat were occupied. But if only one side is occupied, particularly by someone light, isn't there a risk of the other 2/3 of the side lifting with enough force to at least seriously jar and perhaps injure the lone passenger?

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So, you're panicking from a few seconds of one clip where the backseat wasn't even relevant to the test being done? Panicking that crash test ratings used for years in thousands of car models somehow doesn't sufficiently cover back seat safety?

My vote is you're either chicken little or short trying to drum up negative publicity.

You can vote however you want. You don't know me or my situation, and I have the right to express my concerns just as you have the right to express your praise. Good for you, I respect it.

I have also cited to you, from the website, the standards for front ratings that show that the rear passenger seat has nothing to do with a 5 star front rating. That's an issue you can take up with the NHTSA if you find it ridiculous.

Furthermore, I have pointed out that this has happened with NO OTHER CARS that I've been able to find, even though the front tests for those cars were equally unconcerned with the backseat.

 

[ckessel]

That's an issue you can take up with the NHTSA if you find it ridiculous.

Furthermore, I have pointed out that this has happened with NO OTHER CARS that I've been able to find, even though the front tests for those cars were equally unconcerned with the backseat.

Perhaps you should talk to NHTSA, rather than what appears to have been creating an account merely to cast doubt on Tesla receiving a 5 star rating.

If you've honestly created an account out of actual concern that NHTSA testing isn't sufficient and the 3 seconds of the one clip has you worried, then I'll stick with the chicken little theory, and again recommend you talk to NHTSA.

 

[Cutwolf]

Perhaps you should talk to NHTSA, rather than what appears to have been creating an account merely to cast doubt on Tesla receiving a 5 star rating.

If you've honestly created an account out of actual concern that NHTSA testing isn't sufficient and the 3 seconds of the one clip has you worried, then I'll stick with the chicken little theory, and again recommend you talk to NHTSA.

It's sufficient for what it's testing: injury to front passengers.

It does not pretend to test for injuries to rear passengers.

I created an account after seeing posts of "oh, the back seat came detached, that's weird, but let's ignore it." That's the last I will explain myself to you. If you do not like my posts, or agree with them, and can't disagree without making ad hominem attacks, then we have nothing to discuss until you mature a bit.

 

[GlennAlanBerry]

@Cutwolf: I doubt anything anyone here can say will alleviate your concerns. If these concerns are genuine, you should write Tesla and NHTSA and share any answers you receive.

The videos show the Tesla Model S seeming to do very well in all of the crash tests (especially compared to other vehicles). There are over 13,000 Tesla Model S vehicles on the road in North America, with the first ones going in service about 9-10 months ago. These vehicles have logged over 60 million miles on public roads. Some of these vehicles have been involved in various types of collisions in the real world. There have been no reports (that I am aware of) of the rear seat detaching and flying forward.

Elon Musk has five small children that do ride in his personal Model S. One of the reasons that the Model S has the jump seat option is because he wanted it for his own kids. Knowing how involved Elon is in the intimate technical and engineering details of the Model S, how passionate he and his team are about the vehicle, does it seem likely that he would allow a fundamental engineering flaw to go uncorrected?

Especially after how Tesla handled the voluntary recall back in June, do you really think there is a fundamental design flaw in how the rear seats are attached? http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/partial-recall

 

[ckessel]

Ok then, in all seriousness, talk to NHTSA. It got a 5 star rating across a very large set of tests. If you honestly think you've found a loop hole in their testing program that the Model S slipped through, then you really need to talk to NHTSA.

 

[Cutwolf]

@Cutwolf: I doubt anything anyone here can say will alleviate your concerns. If these concerns are genuine, you should write Tesla and NHTSA and share any answers you receive.

The videos show the Tesla Model S seeming to do very well in all of the crash tests (especially compared to other vehicles). There are over 13,000 Tesla Model S vehicles on the road in North America, with the first ones going in service about 9-10 months ago. These vehicles have logged over 60 million miles on public roads. Some of these vehicles have been involved in various types of collisions in the real world. There have been no reports (that I am aware of) of the rear seat detaching and flying forward.

Elon Musk has five small children that do ride in his personal Model S. One of the reasons that the Model S has the jump seat option is because he wanted it for his own kids. Knowing how involved Elon is in the intimate technical and engineering details of the Model S, how passionate he and his team are about the vehicle, does it seem likely that he would allow a fundamental engineering flaw to go uncorrected?

Especially after how Tesla handled the voluntary recall back in June, do you really think there is a fundamental design flaw in how the rear seats are attached? http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/partial-recall

While I trust in Elon, I also have been around long enough -- and in a profession that makes me privy to -- to see CEOs under pressure (self imposed or otherwise) to make things happen that they sweep things much more significant than this under the rug.

That's in no way to say that Elon has done so, and in all likelihood you're all right, but "well, the head honcho does it" doesn't carry much persuasive weight.

That being said, I have emailed Tesla and will email the NHTSA.

Let you know if I hear anything.

 

[Gear]

It's sufficient for what it's testing: injury to front passengers.

It does not pretend to test for injuries to rear passengers.

I created an account after seeing posts of "oh, the back seat came detached, that's weird, but let's ignore it." That's the last I will explain myself to you. If you do not like my posts, or agree with them, and can't disagree without making ad hominem attacks, then we have nothing to discuss until you mature a bit.

I'm pretty confident it's a non-issue personally, but can understand if you'd want to get clarification before making a purchase. It sucks that people always seem to resort to any criticism being an attempt to start a publicity nightmare for Tesla so they can make some profit from shorts. I apologize if my posts came across that way and am interested to see what you hear back. The Model S is a unique car and I wouldn't be surprised if it were something unique to the way they had to test it because of that or whatever. As you said though, it's all just speculation at this point.

 

[Andrew]

So, you're panicking from a few seconds of one clip where the backseat wasn't even relevant to the test being done? Panicking that crash test ratings used for years in thousands of car models somehow doesn't sufficiently cover back seat safety?

My vote is you're either chicken little or short trying to drum up negative publicity.

It seems to me that Cutwolf isn't "panicking." He's raised a question which has at least some merit, and I agree that it's worth trying to get an answer. At the same time, as GlennAlanBerry pointed out, that answer isn't going to come from this forum.

Musk has often said that he welcomes criticism. Shouldn't we be willing to do the same here?

 

[ckessel]

It seems to me that Cutwolf isn't "panicking." He's raised a question which has at least some merit, and I agree that it's worth trying to get an answer. At the same time, as GlennAlanBerry pointed out, that answer isn't going to come from this forum.

Musk has often said that he welcomes criticism. Shouldn't we be willing to do the same here?

I'll agree to a point. There's a point of suffering fools that gets to me. We get people here, and on the Tesla forums, all the time with statements like:

- "The jump seats look unsafe, I'd never put my kids in those!" - when the reality is Tesla absolutely blew alway the safety ratings on rear impact.
- "The touch screen is terribly unsafe, it'll cause lawsuits" - again, the reality is way different.
- "Regen braking is going to cause accidents since the brake lights aren't on!" - uh, yea, the brake lights do come on
- various posts on fears of "battery explosions", "going through water", and such
- and so on..

All by people that have zero experience in safety. They see one video or even just think something in their head, create an account, and post away.

If Cutwolf were an automotive safety engineer, I'd be all for him using his expertise to ask questions. He is, apparently, genuinely concerned, but that doesn't raise his post out of emotional response to the level of valid criticism.

 

[Longhorn92]

This would seem to make more sense if the entire backseat were occupied. But if only one side is occupied, particularly by someone light, isn't there a risk of the other 2/3 of the side lifting with enough force to at least seriously jar and perhaps injure the lone passenger?

A valid question; however, there are a few things to point out:
1. The main impact wants to send the rear seat bottom forward (not up).
2. The rear seat rising into view actually occurs on the crash recoil, not during the main impact.
3. If you look at the video closely, what is happening is that the back edge of the rear seat releases sometime during main impact (it reacts sort of like it's hinged on the front edge such that when it eventually hits the back of the front seats, the front edge is facing down and back edge is facing up). There is not a big force upwards when the back edge releases (again the main force will send everything forward), but upon impact some of the absorbed energy does make the back-end of the car rise (nose down, back jumps slightly).
4. This slight upward movement would not affect the rear seat bottom if anyone was sitting securely fastened in the back (even someone light sitting on one side of the rear seat). Again, there just isn't a big force upward. If there was a large upward force (or even a moderate one), the rear seat bottom would have quickly hit the roof, but it never does... it only gets to about eye-level before going back down.
5. On recoil, the back end of the car goes down which makes anything free-floating at that point rise relative to the inside of the car.

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

How soon will this "news" be out in front of the major press? Sorry but greencarreports doesn't count as major...

The advantage of GCR is that minor or not, their stories go out on AP wires and often are picked up by other organizations. If nothing else it alerts news orgs to a story so they can write their own.

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I hate to be a debbie downer, but I don't know how or why we're discounting the fact that the rear seat came detached.

I was as excited as everyone else when I saw 5 stars, but as someone who would be driving the Model S with a child in the rear seat, there is absolutely no way I could ever take that risk. That's a 35 MPH crash, and the person unlucky enough to be sitting in that rear seat would have either been killed or seriously injured.

Imagine it at slightly higher speeds.

I think this is a much bigger deal than it has been made out to be in this 5 pages, and either there needs to be an explanation, or Tesla can expect to see this video played in front of a jury the first time a rear seat passenger is killed in the Model S. In other words, there needs to be some sort of explanation (this was equipment, this was modified, this was prior to the recall, something).

The projectile rear view mirror is a concern too, but not nearly as much as the backseat turning into a ejection seat.

OMG. The car was a test article which was modified and inspected for purposes of the test. Just because someone forgets to bolt the seat back into place is not a reason to get upset.

 

[aviators99]

Assuming the seats were properly bolted, either:

a) The rear seats are designed to detach on such an impact, and designed in a way that my kids will be safe, and no more needs to be done.
or
b) The rear seats are not designed to detach on such an impact in a safe way, and there needs to be a recall.

The car received and deserves a 5 star rating. I'm not debating that. But I do have a concern about my daily use, based on what I've seen in the video. The idea that the seats weren't bolted seems pretty unlikely to me. Such a scenario could easily affect front seat passengers, and wouldn't be the prudent thing to do by an organization that should know what they're doing. They only get one try at each of these.

 

[montgom626]

If Cutwolf were an automotive safety engineer, I'd be all for him using his expertise to ask questions. He is, apparently, genuinely concerned, but that doesn't raise his post out of emotional response to the level of valid criticism.

I could not agree with you more. NHSTA would not miss that problem. NHSTA is not populated by a bunch of fools. To think that "we" can out guess and out perform NHSTA makes some look foolish. TESLA is not "gaming" the system. To think otherwise is without merit.

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OMG. The car was a test article which was modified and inspected for purposes of the test. Just because someone forgets to bolt the seat back into place is not a reason to get upset.

Some poeple see get upset no matter what the facts are. To them I give my sincerest hope that they can relax and not get so wound up over NOTHING.

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Ok then, in all seriousness, talk to NHTSA. It got a 5 star rating across a very large set of tests. If you honestly think you've found a loop hole in their testing program that the Model S slipped through, then you really need to talk to NHTSA.

NHSTA would say "Who wants to talk to a fellow who thinks he knows more about crash testing than we do? Anyone? Anyone?"

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

Assuming the seats were properly bolted, either:

a) The rear seats are designed to detach on such an impact, and designed in a way that my kids will be safe, and no more needs to be done.
or
b) The rear seats are not designed to detach on such an impact in a safe way, and there needs to be a recall.

The car received and deserves a 5 star rating. I'm not debating that. But I do have a concern about my daily use, based on what I've seen in the video. The idea that the seats weren't bolted seems pretty unlikely to me. Such a scenario could easily affect front seat passengers, and wouldn't be the prudent thing to do by an organization that should know what they're doing. They only get one try at each of these.

You are misunderstanding what I said. The interior of the car has large pieces of equipment installed for testing, including sensors and other materials (like crash dummies). Cables need to be run and other changes are made. Technicians spend a LOT of time inside of the car preparing them, and I've witnessed them removing seats from mini-van they were testing so they would have room to crawl around inside of the car.

This is concern trolling, pure and simple.

Here is a quick video showing some prep work that does not show seat removal, but note the large pieces of equipment being installed, and keep in mind that they needed to properly secure the test rig they put in the trunk and run cables to the front. So even in the video they are skipping a lot of the work they are doing inside.

Preparing Cars for a Small Overlap Crash Test - AOL On

Bottom line, it takes 2 or 3 minutes to remove seats and give yourself room to be comfortable while spending hours crawling around the interior. The idea that an nhtsa technician would forget to bolt the seat back in is about 10,000 times more likely than the idea that the armchair engineers in this forum have discovered a fundamental safety flaw.

 

[aviators99]

You are misunderstanding what I said. The interior of the car has large pieces of equipment installed for testing, including sensors and other materials (like crash dummies). Cables need to be run and other changes are made. Technicians spend a LOT of time inside of the car preparing them, and I've witnessed them removing seats from mini-van they were testing so they would have room to crawl around inside of the car.

This is concern trolling, pure and simple.

Here is a quick video showing some prep work that does not show seat removal, but note the large pieces of equipment being installed, and keep in mind that they needed to properly secure the test rig they put in the trunk and run cables to the front. So even in the video they are skipping a lot of the work they are doing inside.

Preparing Cars for a Small Overlap Crash Test - AOL On

Bottom line, it takes 2 or 3 minutes to remove seats and give yourself room to be comfortable while spending hours crawling around the interior. The idea that an nhtsa technician would forget to bolt the seat back in is about 10,000 times more likely than the idea that the armchair engineers in this forum have discovered a fundamental safety flaw.

I won't comment on the rest of your post, but I will say that I did not misunderstand what you said. Plus, my post was not even replying to anything you said.

 

[loganss]

Even if the bottom rear seat cushion comes off it's soft. Taking a soccer ball to the head would hurt more than the rear seat cushion popping off and having enough force to be painful to any passenger. What's the big deal? If someone is buckled in the rear, the cushion couldn't possibly come off. Seems a bit much for someone to say the Model S wouldn't be safe because of this.