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Rumor summary: Blind-spot cameras, Rain sensing, Level 3, Big battery, Interior/HUD

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Comments:

- First of all, I greatly appreciate your quest for info. Please keep it up.

- I find the theory that it is a Bluetooth antenna for trunk opening with the Bluetooth key as plausible. Placing it behind the plastic Model 3 bumper would make sense. So perhaps it is "nothing" in that sense.

- Adding rear radar(s) would of course make sense too from a cross-traffic detection perspective as well as to see through cars behind. My like for automotive radars is well known. ;) It would not be a huge surprise either.

- We know AP2.5 in Model 3 is not the same as in Model S/X. Model 3 has the "selfie cam" connected to the APE and it has a different (worse?) rear-view camera at least (picture of the Model 3 board with "selfie cam" earlier in this thread and Model 3 rear camera comparisons are plenty on TMC). Also the sandwich structure of its computers and the whole Intel based CDI/MCU is different than in Model S/X. It isn't impossible Tesla might secretively hide more features than just the interior cam. And there is the question that Tesla speaks of only 7 AP cameras in Model 3, not eight. Who knows, then...

IMO it seems possible AP2 exists already in three levels:

- AP2 in early Model S/X
- AP "2.1" or 2.5 is Model S/X now (many new HW feaatures)
- AP 2.5? 2.5+? in Model 3 with interior camera etc. (even more new HW features but perhaps worse rear camera?)

Good luck with the info hunt, unfortunately with a secretive Tesla that seems to be the only way - to keep hunting. :)
 
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Well, one important thing to remember here, is that neural nets aren't a new thing, or just used by Tesla. Neural nets are basically state of the art in many applications and nothing magical anymore.


There are forum posts from 2009 on stack overflow, where people discuss building a spam filter with a neural net, just for fun. Neural networks for email spam detection And even in 2009 NN wasn't really something only a handful of people used. Every speech recognition, image recognition and so on works with a NN. A very fun example:
Lyrebird - Create a digital copy of voice

I remember machine learning and AI being a thing back in the 90s and today they are used in a lot of applications. Every company invested in autonomous driving uses neural nets. So it wasn't like Tesla thought they could use NN to solve a problem others tried to solve differently.

There is a discussion of how much deep learning a car should do and where a human needs to step in and help. And depending on who you ask and when, the answer always changes. But they all use it. Otherwise it would be pretty impossible to get to any kind of autonomous driving.

True, neural networks are an old idea. Older than even you're saying, they date back to the 1940's, with backpropagation(which allowed non-ridiculous training times) being developed in the 1980's. What is relatively new, and is driving the big uptick in both the usage and public awareness of neural networks is high powered GPU's that can handle training deep neural networks(>1 hidden layer) in non-ridiculous amounts of time. Single layer perceptrons(neural networks of the 80's and 90's) turned out to be very poor at generalizing, to the point of almost being worthless.
 
True, neural networks are an old idea. Older than even you're saying, they date back to the 1940's, with backpropagation(which allowed non-ridiculous training times) being developed in the 1980's. What is relatively new, and is driving the big uptick in both the usage and public awareness of neural networks is high powered GPU's that can handle training deep neural networks(>1 hidden layer) in non-ridiculous amounts of time. Single layer perceptrons(neural networks of the 80's and 90's) turned out to be very poor at generalizing, to the point of almost being worthless.

Yep, that's true. I just wanted to point out that NN isn't something only Tesla does. Everyone uses neural nets, deep neural nets, to try to teach their cars self driving. So Tesla is not going some weird way, that could turn out to not work, but rather is doing what everyone else is doing.
 
Yep, that's true. I just wanted to point out that NN isn't something only Tesla does. Everyone uses neural nets, deep neural nets, to try to teach their cars self driving. So Tesla is not going some weird way, that could turn out to not work, but rather is doing what everyone else is doing.

The use of AI/NN is not what Tesla's doing that's abnormal compared to everyone else. The part that's abnormal is that everyone else is strapping $20,000 worth of cameras with DSLR-quality lenses, multiple overlapping LIDAR+radar, etc, while Tesla essentially says "well we can do the same thing with 8 webcams" and then bumbles around for over a year trying to activate more than 2 of the cameras.

That's the big thing Tesla is doing differently that could either work or not work. And FTR I'm in the "it could work, but might take longer than the traditional approach, and would be a huge advantage if it pays off" camp.
 
The use of AI/NN is not what Tesla's doing that's abnormal compared to everyone else. The part that's abnormal is that everyone else is strapping $20,000 worth of cameras with DSLR-quality lenses, multiple overlapping LIDAR+radar, etc, while Tesla essentially says "well we can do the same thing with 8 webcams" and then bumbles around for over a year trying to activate more than 2 of the cameras.

That's the big thing Tesla is doing differently that could either work or not work. And FTR I'm in the "it could work, but might take longer than the traditional approach, and would be a huge advantage if it pays off" camp.

Also not really unique, MobileEye will be collecting data with their EyeQ4 chip with not more than Tesla, since they will build those into consumer cars. Tesla IMO is doing the same with their AP 2.X, they are building HD maps. With the amount of cars on the road this is the best thing Tesla can do. The amount of data input might even correct the high tolerance of not using LIDAR.
 
Also not really unique, MobileEye will be collecting data with their EyeQ4 chip with not more than Tesla, since they will build those into consumer cars. Tesla IMO is doing the same with their AP 2.X, they are building HD maps. With the amount of cars on the road this is the best thing Tesla can do. The amount of data input might even correct the high tolerance of not using LIDAR.

Except EyeQ4 is still planned to be used as a sensor fusion assisted vision platform, and is only meant to achieve L3, and is still essentially not available to customers yet. And their L5 solution with EyeQ5 is not meant to be available until 2020 or later.

Nothing about what Tesla is doing is insane. It just seems that AP2's release was maybe 4 years ahead of industry consensus regarding when it should be achievable.
 
Except EyeQ4 is still planned to be used as a sensor fusion assisted vision platform, and is only meant to achieve L3, and is still essentially not available to customers yet. And their L5 solution with EyeQ5 is not meant to be available until 2020 or later.

Nothing about what Tesla is doing is insane. It just seems that AP2's release was maybe 4 years ahead of industry consensus regarding when it should be achievable.

EyeQ4 SOP is right now, EyeQ5 will come in 2020.
 
btw I saw 18.4.1, it seems to add FEATURE_blindspotWarningEnabled flag, defaults to true, but not doing anything, still another addition into upcoming bling spot warnings coming soon theory.

Other notable additions: FEATURE_cameraEnabled and FEATURE_laneDepartureWarningEnabled

I've been sending tesla feedback several times now asking if tesla could add a feature to give the user an on/off option to give an audible chime when the driver puts on a blinker and the sensors detect an object in the blindspot. Wonder if they will do it!
 
I've been sending tesla feedback several times now asking if tesla could add a feature to give the user an on/off option to give an audible chime when the driver puts on a blinker and the sensors detect an object in the blindspot. Wonder if they will do it!

If they use the same chime they always do for the ultrasonics, no one will have any idea what it means when it matters. The proximity chime is useless since it gives no sense of direction or distance, I've had it disabled forever.
 
- Adding rear radar(s) would of course make sense too from a cross-traffic detection perspective as well as to see through cars behind. My like for automotive radars is well known. ;) It would not be a huge surprise either.

For cross traffic, would they not need corner radar? This is what I find the most surprising about the current AP sensors. The lack of front and rear corner radar as in urban situations, lots of cases where only the front nose of the car can see what is coming from you from the side because your visibility is blocked.
 
The addition of a HUD would be welcomed. I drive with one daily and was surprised how much I missed it during an overnight MX test drive. Consequently, I hardly ever look at the instrument cluster.
 

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I wouldn't mind a unique chime for blindspot, it would be kind of nice to hear it from the speakers nearest the sensors that are detecting something too, so you can tell by ear only.

That is a great idea. So if a car is by the back right passenger side and if you try to make a turn and then the chime would play on the back right passenger speaker.
 
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First images I've seen of APE 2.5:
Tesla Part Number 1125800-00-B Used Good Condition (H21) | eBay

- 2 boards
- connector re-arrangement
- 2 new purple connectors, probably related to rearview camera

IMO it seems possible AP2 exists already in three levels:

- AP2 in early Model S/X
- AP "2.1" or 2.5 is Model S/X now (many new HW feaatures)
- AP 2.5? 2.5+? in Model 3 with interior camera etc. (even more new HW features but perhaps worse rear camera?)

Thank you @CraZ8. I really appreciate your note.

Has your source discussed the introduction of the interior camera in the Model S/X. Is that tied to the larger upgrade? I guess so far the assumption has been that Model S/X would get their own "sandwhich" when the CID is replaced, but who knows if these two are tied...

This Reddit post seems little discussed on TMC (unconfirmed of course if really even from a Model 3). It would suggest the camera connects to the APE (and not for example the CID/MCU):

pr3jd20fsca01.jpg


SMILE!! I can confirm the camera inside your Model 3 cabin is a selfie cam! • r/teslamotors

The colors blue, purple, white, black do seem to match the Fakras seen on the APE portion of the Model 3 APE/MCU sandwhich (top left corner):

model-3-computer-4.jpg


model-3-computer-3.jpg


Tesla Model 3: first look at new dual computing platform Tesla developed for Autopilot and MCU

This of course missing from the old AP2 board below - unknown if AP2.5 board would have the connector. However what can be seen here is that the style of the Fakra parts on the lower edge at least does match with the alleged Model 3 selfie cam.

tesla-nvidia-computer-12.jpg


The Tesla / Mobileye story

New Model S/X AP 2.5 connectors and the rearrangement visualized, compared to AP 2.0. Two new purple connectors, previously speculated to involve perhaps a hardware switch for rear-view camera or new type of CID/MCU connection (preparing for a future CID/MCU refresh or to avoid this bug by a hardware passthrough? Dangerous backup cam freeze?):

ap20_comparison.jpg


Model S/X AP 2.5 compared to Model 3 AP version (whatever it should be called?) - Model S/X does not seem to have the "Selfie" connector:

ap25_comparison.jpg


Thank you @lunitiks @verygreen @BigD0g @wk057 and other sources for keeping us posted. Please keep it up!
 
New fodder for the HUD speculation from Elon Musk's tweet, answering a question about Tesla Roadster: "Definitely. Will also have Augmented Mode that will massively enhance human driving ability. Like a flying metal suit, but in car form …"

musktweet.jpg


Elon Musk on Twitter

As you know, I have been speculating about an Augmented Reality HUD for some time now (see first post). My concept drawing could certainly fit the bill of an "Augmented Mode":

hud-jpg.267636


That said, the Augmented Mode described by Elon could also fit some form of advanced traction control - or a combination of both vision and other augmented features.

This image of a flying metal suit from popular culture is popular - and Elon did, way back when, talk of "spaceship controls" too - could this have been what Elon had in mind in both instances?

Iron_Man_Mark_VII_HUD_design_By_Jayse_Hansen_1400.png


There is also the fact that Augmented Reality HUDs are an industry-wide phenomenon in development (again, links earlier in this thread to threads with links to several development projects). Tesla hopping on this train would seem plausible from that perspective as well, though not a guarantee given how Tesla regularly shirks common trends.

As for the rest, there has been very little progress and reason to update the thread, as the real action has been over on the Model 3 side, which seems to be progressing towards an eventual success IMO. Obviously Model S/X progress has stalled and many speculated timelines have been excessively optimistic. A few comments:

- The red interior. I personally agree with the alleged leaks, as well as the speculation from Elon about the red interior, that any major update to Model S/X were postponed - possibly from a planned Q1/2018 update to late 2018 or early 2019, due to a need to focus on Model 3 and that the reference to a red interior next year could point to the new timeline. These rumors and alleged leaks are quoted earlier in this thread. The mild trim update recently done to Model S/X interior seems like a stop-gap to me. IMO the red interior could be a sign of a revised interior, one that could include things like Model 3's interior camera, new dash and screens and possibly an Augmented Reality HUD, and not just another stop-gap. As usual, all speculation and subject to change at whims of Tesla even in the best of guessing times.

- Two paths to on-ramp/off-ramp on Autopilot. An interesting conversation. It is obviously true that Tesla's in-house EAP codebase is much more feature-rich than the shipping one, as has been mentioned by Elon Musk (and is believable, as well as supported by leaked photos). Navigation-based off-ramp was originally promised for around Q4/2016 for AP1. It does not seem implausible that Tesla could have gotten things to work soon(ish) in this regard after a delay of 1.5+ years. AP1 features seem delayed quite possibly to keep it from increasing a parity gap and I guess I'd expect both to appear at the same time, if they got the AP1 improvements to work reliably too. (If not, quietly forgetting about the AP1 promise, like the vanity mirror retrofit - now shipping but not retrofitting - seems plausible too.)

Still, there are legitimate concerns about the pace and reliability of Tesla's NN progress, given the reported lust to wander away from lanes and center towards gore points - and the general length it has taken for significant new features to arrive (I believe @calisnow would have lost his $10,000 bet had someone taken him up on it, no new EAP features?) - so the timeline of maturing of these new features seems unknown. Past progress may or may not be indicative of anything. I do wonder if the recent manual changes regarding lead cars could be sign of Tesla steering away from lead car bias, possibly a result of the latest Mountain View incident information mentioning a lead car? A shout-out to @croman - I still don't see blue almost ever, a bright white IC car in front is common, though. :)

- I have long been a proponent of the speculation that the new 2170 battery (currently in Model 3) is superior to the old-cell battery in more ways than just cost. I think we may be seeing the first signs of this unfolding in the impressive range, performance and other potentially not yet unveiled improvements happening in the battery space: Tesla releases rare details about Model 3’s battery cells, claims highest energy density and less cobalt. Speculatedly the difficulties with the Gigafactory and Model 3 ramp-up have precluded any talk of introducing these on the Model S/X yet, but when the full capabilities of the new batteries will be shown I continue to expect significant improvements and kWh upgrades over the old cell even in the current (or slightly facelifted) Model S/X form-factor.

Thanks to all who have continued to interesting analysis and speculation on these! Please keep up the good work. :)
 
One more thought on "Augmented Mode", how about the car suggesting recommended driving lines, economic braking points etc. in addition to simply navigation intructions on the augmented reality HUD display. That certainly would fit the bill of enhancing human driving ability...

This may be too wild, but given Tesla's penchant for popular culture and showiness, maybe they'd even entertain track-specific racing lines for some tracks. Something akin to this on an AR display...

geometric-apex.png


...but maybe this is a speculation too far. :)