Self-driving cars (level 3) to be allowed on UK roads

[GRiLLA]

Things do seem to be coming together for this pilot. People have noticed Tesla starting to use the internal camera to monitor driver alertness in the FSD beta, which is required. Next Tesla need to just disable the AP nags below 37mph, doesn't sound hard. Finally there's the suggestion that you should be encouraged to stay awake by being allowed to watch a film, do emails, browse the web. Maybe that's some of the capability that v11 will bring.

What I don't see mentioned in the press is the requirement that was stated was that it could only be used on roads "where pedestrians and cyclists are prohibited, are equipped with a physical separation that divides the moving traffic moving in opposite directions", which is more or less the same criteria for NoA today. So basically motorway/dual carriageway with congestion initially. I assume also that junctions and other more complicated scenarios will hand back to the driver.

To the point above about 10 seconds, a driver is expected to take control within 4 seconds, after that 'escalation' of the alert happens until after 10s the car would start stopping. I'm pretty sure that's less than the nag time when driving today. What we are talking about here is no longer requiring us to keep hands on the wheel, not a relaxation of how long the car can continue for.

It's a step forward, a small and cautious step but what else would we expect? If it's deemed a success and the limit is increased to 70 next it'll be very valuable to me. Let the car drive and I'll get involved to confirm lane changes and junctions, otherwise I can watch SpaceX livestreams on Youtube, proper nerd stuff, living in the future.

 

[NewbieT]

I don’t think there’s a risk of not having AP above 37mph. It’s a driver assistance aid that requires to to be ‘driving’ at all times, just like adaptive cruise control with a fancy name. The risk is how Tesla might have to tweak the software to fall in the UN rules again. FFS.

 

[MrBadger]

This might entice Tesla to bring some of the features that appear in the FSD City Streets beta into the highways. I'm not suggesting City Streets FSD, but significant improvements on what we already have like better lane and speed control and obstacle avoidance. I cannot see the car becoming Type approved without some serious refinement - many motorway intersections are still handled with clenched buttocks, speed limit awareness is hit and miss and one big industry gripe of Tesla's LKA is lack of obstacle avoidance - all of these are much improved in the FSD City Streets beta but still missing in the highways functionality. It will be Tesla's responsibility to comply if they want to join this party and not be seen as lagging behind others.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

To the point above about 10 seconds, a driver is expected to take control within 4 seconds, after that 'escalation' of the alert happens until after 10s the car would start stopping. I'm pretty sure that's less than the nag time when driving today. What we are talking about here is no longer requiring us to keep hands on the wheel, not a relaxation of how long the car can continue for.

There is a significant difference,

The nags are there if the driver is not detected, but the driver is still responsble regardless and if and when the system fails the driver must take over instantly. There is no 4 second tolerance today for taking over control, just the alerts don't kick in

The revised system/rules are the system should be able to cope for 4-10s and not fail until the driver has taken over control within 10s. There is zero tolerance for the system to fail/disengage instantly.

An example - on a bend, if AP can't cope mid corner then the driver must take over when it fails. With the revised system the car should not attempt the corner if it thinks it can't complete it and hand over control in good time.

 

[Adopado]

and one big industry gripe of Tesla's LKA is lack of obstacle avoidance

Over many years of driving there have been a handful of occasions when obstacle avoidance has been required by me on a motorway. In a couple of them they could well have resulted in accidents serious enough to be life threatening to me, my passengers or other road users. It isn't common for a 5 metre section of stainless steel industrial kitchen worktop with associated sinks and fittings to fly off the back of a truck ... but when it happened in front of me I could instantly assess the danger and trajectory of the steelwork as it crashed across the carriageway ... so avoided it. Best of luck Tesla on that one ...

 

[Yev000]

Over many years of driving there have been a handful of occasions when obstacle avoidance has been required by me on a motorway. In a couple of them they could well have resulted in accidents serious enough to be life threatening to me, my passengers or other road users. It isn't common for a 5 metre section of stainless steel industrial kitchen worktop with associated sinks and fittings to fly off the back of a truck ... but when it happened in front of me I could instantly assess the danger and trajectory of the steelwork as it crashed across the carriageway ... so avoided it. Best of luck Tesla on that one ...

I'm sure they will throw the kitchen sink at it.

 

[pgkevet]

Over many years of driving there have been a handful of occasions when obstacle avoidance has been required by me on a motorway. In a couple of them they could well have resulted in accidents serious enough to be life threatening to me, my passengers or other road users. It isn't common for a 5 metre section of stainless steel industrial kitchen worktop with associated sinks and fittings to fly off the back of a truck ... but when it happened in front of me I could instantly assess the danger and trajectory of the steelwork as it crashed across the carriageway ... so avoided it. Best of luck Tesla on that one ...

A tesla will only avoid such if it's mounted in a corner case
2 episodes of debris in my 53yrs driving - a canoe off a car's roof-rack on the M4 (shattered on impact with road, no damage) and a case of corned beef cans off a lorry missed my honda 50 in London - but fed this student for the rest of term.

 

[GRiLLA]

There is a significant difference,

The nags are there if the driver is not detected, but the driver is still responsble regardless and if and when the system fails the driver must take over instantly. There is no 4 second tolerance today for taking over control, just the alerts don't kick in

The revised system/rules are the system should be able to cope for 4-10s and not fail until the driver has taken over control within 10s. There is zero tolerance for the system to fail/disengage instantly.

An example - on a bend, if AP can't cope mid corner then the driver must take over when it fails. With the revised system the car should not attempt the corner if it thinks it can't complete it and hand over control in good

How many times has AP passed back control instantly while driving on a motorway in one lane? I've never seen it.

 

[Yev000]

How many times has AP passed back control instantly while driving on a motorway in one lane? I've never seen it.

I mean it will do it once you departed the lane.... Mostly due to UN regulations, but also due to Tesla AP team giving the middle finger by doing a half assed implementation of said regulations.

Your problem is you are obeying the speed limits.... You need to go faster, then it will happen.

What I find a bit funny in all such discussions is that we are talking about unreleased FSD rewrite and judging it based on experience with an old AP core that hasn't been touched for over a year (other than minor tweaks) that has been gimped - on purpouse - by complying with regulations that are ignored in USA.

It always sucked and its hard not to suck, so it will continue to suck, so say we all... insert arbitary number of years before it might not suck ... In a different country, because we can't have nice things in UK.... Here it will suck forever, because of <insert current PM>! In fact it will get worce...

There, now we can all go down the pub and moan about it over a pint.

 

[Tony Hoyle]

There, now we can all go down the pub and moan about it over a pint.

Not until 17th May we can't

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

How many times has AP passed back control instantly while driving on a motorway in one lane? I've never seen it.

You’re asking the wrong question. How many times have you had to take over because the cars started to do something stupid? Now add the fact the car will both need to know it’s doing something stupid and give you 10s notice.

 

[JupiterMan]

There are other rules being consulted on in addition to this trial, with results of the consultation due later this year.

These rules propose higher speeds, Robo Taxis, lane changes, deal with insurance/liabilities.... as rules that the manufacturer can choose instead of (or in addition to) the current rubbish UNECE rules..

Automated Vehicles - Law Commission

Documents Summary of automated vehicles: joint report Automated Vehicles: joint report Background Papers Analysis of responses to Consultation Paper 3 All responses to Consultation Paper 3 Impact assessment Overview Overview (Welsh translation) The project Our work began in 2018 when the...

www.lawcom.gov.uk

A lengthy read but hopefully this is the future, not what has been announced today....

 

[MrBadger]

How many times has AP passed back control instantly while driving on a motorway in one lane? I've never seen it.

Its a fairly regular event around intersections, especially if traffic pushes in to your lane too close.

 

[UrbanSplash]

I can see nothing changing for Tesla drivers at all. Already can do this with a steering wheel nudge. Tesla aren’t going to remove this requirement in the UK. What’s everyone getting excited about ? I can see the sensationalist headlines now when an accident happens.

 

[GRiLLA]

You’re asking the wrong question. How many times have you had to take over because the cars started to do something stupid? Now add the fact the car will both need to know it’s doing something stupid and give you 10s notice.

Driving in one lane on a motorway, never that I can think of. Sure it can have it's moments doing a lane change, and it's insane taking exits, but not just driving down a lane.

 

[Mr H]

According to the news at six it’s for Lane 1 only, or, as they put it, the slow lane, whatever that is

 

[Dilly]

According to the news at six it’s for Lane 1 only, or, as they put it, the slow lane, whatever that is

Or all lanes on the M25…

 

[Tony Hoyle]

Well you wouldn't want to be going 37mph in lane 3. The BMW drivers would get *very* upset

 

[AndrewGR]

How often is stop / go motorway traffic consistently less than 37mph? Not often in my experience. Usually the congestion moves in waves going faster and slower. I can’t see the ability not to be nagged when below 37 and then being nagged as soon as the car is moving above 37 as very useful. Indeed, the risk of missing the nags after the car has accelerated and having the car stop in Park with the hazard lights on could be positively detrimental!

 

[Cardo]

How often is stop / go motorway traffic consistently less than 37mph? Not often in my experience. Usually the congestion moves in waves going faster and slower. I can’t see the ability not to be nagged when below 37 and then being nagged as soon as the car is moving above 37 as very useful. Indeed, the risk of missing the nags after the car has accelerated and having the car stop in Park with the hazard lights on could be positively detrimental!

I have TACC with LKA on my i3, but the LKA only works below 37mph. It’s completely pointless. I can only engage it on dual carriageways when in slow moving traffic. If the traffic speeds up, as it does in waves, the car will only speed up to 37mph and then sit at that speed until I disable the LKA. I’ve used it maybe twice in the past couple of years. I’m hoping any Tesla implementation will be more sensible.