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Should I buy the "full self driving option"?

Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
12,275
17,239
NC
Haha, I knew this one was coming as I typed "city streets".
You're right, it is not intended to be used in city streets, but I don't think the system is limited by design, it's limited by the technology.

It's limited by both.

The computer can't handle 8 cameras at full frame rate, and none of the programming is meant to work on city streets either.


For example, I don't think the system sucks at dealing with left turn lanes because the developers thought they didn't have to bother with that scenario, I think it sucks because they could not figure out how to handle the scenario.

It sucks because the fundamental basic assumption of AP right now is:

You are driving on a limited-access divided road, with all traffic going in a single direction, no cross-traffic, and people only entering or exiting via ramps/exits.


City streets violate virtually every element of that assumption.


I strongly disagree here. I don't think FSD will use entirely different HW and SW, but actually a lot of the same HW and SW.

Nope.

Tesla has been quite clear on this.

FSD (the city streets kind) will require HW3.

It will also require a different branch of software (that won't run on HW2.x, runs much larger neural net code, and currently isn't deployed on any consumer-owned vehicles)
 

qdeathstar

Completely Serious
May 17, 2019
3,145
2,169
VB
No, you should buy the highest trim model 3 you can afford, then add fsd later when you can afford it

I have it and use it all the time, but I think I would have gotten the awd full premium long range version without rims or fsd if I had to do it again...
 
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Nelson

Member
Oct 28, 2016
51
26
New Jersey
Seriously? Not my experience at all and if it was I know theyd fix it.

NOA is useless in my opinion, it ping pongs in between lanes and just irritates other drivers. For example if you are in the middle lane with 2 cars in front of you it will change to the left lane pass one car then go back to the middle lane and then attempt another lane change to pass the 2nd car rather than passing both cars at the same time and then moving to the right. If you drive on highways that have a decent flow of traffic I find it not worth using, every time I try it again I turn it off immediately after a couple of minutes. Maybe it is better on mostly empty highways where you encounter few cars.
 

Octo

Member
Jun 28, 2019
386
402
Dallas
I’d buy it if I wanted to fund Tesla’s R&D. Without actual expectations that it would ever exist in a truly useful and safe incarnation for the current Model 3.

The existing, released semi autonomous functions are so silly that I don’t have confidence in Tesla’s ability to take this from the lab to reality and QC it properly. And I’m not rich enough to fund a billionaire’s vision.

I’ll buy it (even if it’s much more expensive than the “deal” right now), when it is ready and working as I’d expect it to work.
 

Fernand

Active Member
Mar 22, 2019
1,542
1,541
Northern california
People are talking about a future FSD, but that's not what you're buying now. FWIW, I'm very happy with EAP. But that combination is no longer available. I use AS on wider city streets, highways and NOA on freeways. If I had the current default AP I wouldn't know what I'm missing. NOA is much safer than AS because the car knows where it's going, e.g. which lane to take in ambiguous situations.

Bumper to bumper is a dream with NOA, just like open freeways. I don't understand the expectations of the complainers. Of course you're DRIVING, not being chauffeured, you are supposed to decide where to use what automated or manual modes, sometimes several times in minutes, not enable it and go to sleep. Switching modes is much like changing gears, that's why it's at your fingertips on the right stalk. Learn to use it.

Just the lane change on blinker is literally a life changer for me as I'm extremely nervous about blind spots in dense merging traffic. I can signal and let the car pick the moment to make the change. Without even considering the "futures" value, coming from a bare bones AP, since "FSD" includes the 3.X hardware, lane changing and NOA, it's worth every penny here and now.
 
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focher

Active Member
Oct 15, 2013
1,038
1,498
Bay Area
FSD under today's definition is absolutely a worthwhile purchase. Previously, FSD was a future promise of functionality that still doesn't exist today.

So under the current FSD package, you get Autosteer, Navigate-on-Autopilot, and Summon. Those features are actively improving, and the ability of the car to drive under an increasing number of scenarios. You've also prevented your car from getting devalued when you go to sell it because it's missing such a key feature. That price difference will be 100% based on Tesla's price at the time you sell it.
 
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Joshan

Member
Jan 8, 2019
517
839
Chicago
NOA is useless in my opinion, it ping pongs in between lanes and just irritates other drivers. For example if you are in the middle lane with 2 cars in front of you it will change to the left lane pass one car then go back to the middle lane and then attempt another lane change to pass the 2nd car rather than passing both cars at the same time and then moving to the right. .

Huh, Mine has never done anything like this.

Plus you have complete control of if and when it changes lanes at all times. I drive in Chicago, so I am in MAJOR traffic at all times. The only thing annoying I see lane changes do is always trying to get me to move out of the left lane calling it a "passing lane". I just hit cancel when it asks to do that and it goes away.

Behavior like this is caused by Mad Max IMO, which I do not get why anyone uses. I think that people misunderstand what Mad Max is...

It does not change lanes faster or more aggressively, it just changes lanes more often for smaller reasons.
 

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
9,500
10,683
Riverside Co. CA
I cant believe all of you are not realizing that this OPs sole purpose is to try to drive you all to the video... just like the last post they made with a sensationalist title.
 

Octo

Member
Jun 28, 2019
386
402
Dallas
The only thing annoying I see lane changes do is always trying to get me to move out of the left lane calling it a "passing lane".

That sounds like correct driving behavior. I understand that lots of drivers in the US prefer to stay in the left lane even though it is supposed to be for passing only. TX interstates have signs reminding drivers.

In Germany, for example, this is treated much more seriously because it’s illegal (and enforced $$$) to pass on the right and the left lane is for 200mph Porsches.
 

Joshan

Member
Jan 8, 2019
517
839
Chicago
That sounds like correct driving behavior. I understand that lots of drivers in the US prefer to stay in the left lane even though it is supposed to be for passing only. TX interstates have signs reminding drivers.

In Germany, for example, this is treated much more seriously because it’s illegal (and enforced $$$) to pass on the right and the left lane is for 200mph Porsches.

Totally get that, but when I am doing 5mph in bumper to bumper traffic in all lanes, there is no "passing lane".
 

Fernand

Active Member
Mar 22, 2019
1,542
1,541
Northern california
I love MadMax with Sport Steering and adjust the inter-car distance and max speed all the time - I ride the automation, only leave it on a given setting when conditions are completely stable and I can relax. The automation is not like an old-fashioned cruise control, that's for old folks cattle riding at the speed limit. I'd rather interact, punch in and out of manual, and reject some proposed lane changes rather than get fewer. The net result that way is a lot of mileage where the car does the work, with appropriate/safe use of the amazing system.

I think too many people approach it wrong. They start out nervous, but next they want to just leave the AP on like a cruise control, and don't appreciate the enormous difference. Then they are rudely awakened and complain it's not like a boat's auto-rudder, keeping the craft going in a straight line. If you're like that, just get the base model and keep it in manual, you'll have less to complain about. And maybe stop posting dumb Youtube clips that confuse potential buyers.
 
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Octo

Member
Jun 28, 2019
386
402
Dallas
About the “wrong approach”:

Words have meaning.

If you call a food “ice cream”, I expect a frozen treat.

If you call a pet a cat, I expect a furry critter that meows and poops in a litter box.

If you call a feature “auto pilot”, I expect it to automatically, you know, pilot the vehicle.

If you call a feature “Full (!!!) Self Driving”, I expect it to fully (!!!) drive itself from A to B without regular interventions by a human.

If you call something a “robotaxi”, I expect a vehicle that hauls passengers from A to B like any other taxi but without a driver.

So basically what Tesla serves today is all hyped up BS using words that don’t describe what they sell. And robotaxis within the next decade? Eyeroll.

Enhanced Auto Pilot today is more like “Hail Mary Suicide Piloting With Visual Acuity Like A Drunk Octogenarian”.
 

JulienW

Active Member
Jul 7, 2018
2,568
2,799
Atlanta
Lane change with signal light on AP almost makes it worth it. Can’t imagine driving on multi lane crowded roads without the ability to change lanes in AP.
 

Uncle Don

Member
May 21, 2019
111
167
California
Lane change with signal light on AP almost makes it worth it. Can’t imagine driving on multi lane crowded roads without the ability to change lanes in AP.

Can't imagine it? How long have you been driving? I've been driving more than 40 years and have been doing fine without Autopilot.

I haven't bought AP or FSD. I have used AP during a trial. I may buy AP at some point if it goes on sale again. I wouldn't even dream of buying FSD until I can nap while the car takes me where I'm going while I sit in the back seat.
 

Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
12,275
17,239
NC
About the “wrong approach”:

Words have meaning.

If you call a food “ice cream”, I expect a frozen treat.

If you call a pet a cat, I expect a furry critter that meows and poops in a litter box.

If you call a feature “auto pilot”, I expect it to automatically, you know, pilot the vehicle.


That's your mistake then- since it doesn't do that in airplanes either, which is where the name comes from.

In both cars and aircraft it's an assist system to help the pilot with some (and only some) of the more boring/tedious aspects of operating the vehicle, without replacing said pilot or no longer requiring his definite attention at all times.



If you call a feature “Full (!!!) Self Driving”, I expect it to fully (!!!) drive itself from A to B without regular interventions by a human.

Do you often buy things for $6000 without reading what they actually do?

Certainly that's the eventual goal of that feature- and if you read the description it goes into some detail that it doesn't do that today and that ever doing it will require significant regulatory approvals.



If you call something a “robotaxi”, I expect a vehicle that hauls passengers from A to B like any other taxi but without a driver.

Can you point out where on tesla.com they are currently selling those?

No?

How odd.


So basically what Tesla serves today is all hyped up BS using words that don’t describe what they sell.


Yeah, I mean- If you're that literal without checking the details you must get a lot of funny looks parking on parkways and driving on driveways I guess?

You'll hate these names too-

Peanuts aren't nuts, they're legumes.
Guinea pigs aren't actually pigs, they're rodents.
White chocolate isn't actually chocolate (it contains no cocoa solids)
Starfish aren't actually fish (they're echinoderms)
In a related story- Jellyfish aren't fish either (they're cnidarians)
Strawberries (and raspberry and blackberries) aren't even berries! But Bananas are.



Enhanced Auto Pilot today is more like “Hail Mary Suicide Piloting With Visual Acuity Like A Drunk Octogenarian”.


Meanwhile, back in reality, the accident rate for Teslas on autopilot is much lower than Teslas not running AP.... (and MUCH MUCH lower than the general accident rate among all other cars)


I guess you think now they should call it "Safer Than You At Least Pilot" huh?
 
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Octo

Member
Jun 28, 2019
386
402
Dallas
Blablablabla...
In both cars and aircraft it's an assist system to help the pilot with some (and only some) of the more boring/tedious aspects of operating the vehicle, without replacing said pilot or no longer requiring his definite attention at all times.

Do you often buy things for $6000 without reading what they actually do?

Blablablabla...

Peanuts aren't nuts, they're legumes.
Guinea pigs aren't actually pigs, they're rodents.
White chocolate isn't actually chocolate (it contains no cocoa solids)
Starfish aren't actually fish (they're echinoderms)
In a related story- Jellyfish aren't fish either (they're cnidarians)
Strawberries (and raspberry and blackberries) aren't even berries! But Bananas are.

There is no modern plane with auto pilot that is as dangerously inept and unsafe as Tesla’s current “Enhanced” Auto Pilot. Don’t call Telsa’s haphazardous toy an auto pilot because it’s not. It’s a half baked beta R&D toy from a team that apparently suffers unusual turnover due to a mercurial boss who painted himself and his whole company in a corner by selling FSD for real money.

And I didn’t buy it for $6000 precisely because I understand what it *really* is.

Yeah, there are some common items labeled incorrectly. But that a peanut is a legume doesn’t matter for it’s purpose.
If FSD is really HMSPWVALADO, it does matter.
 

Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
12,275
17,239
NC
There is no modern plane with auto pilot that is as dangerously inept and unsafe as Tesla’s current “Enhanced” Auto Pilot.


Given Autopilot accident rates are far lower than without it, your comments continue to make no actual sense in light of actual facts.

Don’t call Telsa’s haphazardous toy an auto pilot because it’s not.

I mean, it literally is one. In the exact same way an aircraft autopilot is. It handles parts of the dynamic operating task of the vehicle, and only while remaining under direct human control- most commonly handling the most tedious parts of the task during routine cruising.

Numerous actual pilots have discussed this in some detail in many threads on here- not that you seem swayed by facts or expertise.



And I didn’t buy it for $6000 precisely because I understand what it *really* is.


*rotfl*

Clearly not. You still think the "dancing cars" visualization makes it dangerous somehow.
 

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