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So SilkySmooth never happened now waithing on SomethingSpecial

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Been thinking about this a long time...my AP1 car has had some scary moments, but is approaching "silky" in most scenarios . But my suggestion to everyone with AP cars is to leave it off and drive your very best, diligently. Before you get fired up about my opinion, read why I think this is best course of action:

As I understand AP now, it's uploading data to AI in the cloud, parsing the data, sending data to the cars to improve their accuracy and behavior. Given that (at least for AP2 cars), which is the better way for us to behave? Scenario A: If we allow EAP to do it's thing (it makes its occasional misjudgments and we jerk the wheel back, accelerate or brake frantically), it only learns that it's done something wrong but it didn't see how to pass through that area correctly. Scenario B: However, if we drive the car unassisted (but EAP is still watching) and pass through a "dangerous" spots like narrow bridges, over oddly painted crosswalks, under bridge overpasses, etc, without incident, the car will learn that behavior and thus behave better in those "trouble" spots for the current MX/MS and 1000s of M3 drivers soon to pass that spot.

So, unless I misunderstand the way Tesla EAP/AI system is functioning, I think we should be teaching the system ourselves, as good experienced drivers, and not allowing EAP in its nascent stages so be figuring it out by itself. We often note that EAP is "like driving with a teenager"...very few of us would set the cruise at 80 for a teenage driver in dense urban freeway traffic and then look down at our phones, would we? In fact, we'd have had our pre-teens watching our driving behavior for years before they get behind the wheel. Then we'd start them slowly, with some off-street training, and THEN ease into public driving, and THEN more complex scenarios. The magical thing about EAP is that it's leapfrogging the human model, but we shouldn't expect it to parse an incredibly complex environment immediately without proper training. I'm guilty too...my de facto behavior has been to set EAP near the speed that I would drive myself, based on how quickly I want to get somewhere, but would I do that with a teenage driver?? No...I'd advise them to go slower, watch them like a hawk, ready steer at any time.

So I think we've been approaching EAP the wrong way, and my suggestion has a broader Tesla community benefit: stop using EAP, but let it watch you drive. This TMC (and TMC community should consider harnessing the wisdom of a crowd of good Tesla drivers to more rapidly improve EAP, so we can all enjoy a rock-solid EAP (and FSD) sooner, and possibly prevent catastrophic incidents). Some will say "I paid for it so I demand that it work now". I paid for it too, understanding fully the caveats that came with it, but now I have an opportunity to help improve the technology just by doing what I was already doing before?!? AFAIK, no other brand owners can say their car gets better as they drive it.

And of note to the OP, my AP1 car has improved substantially since I bought it, and further still since Musk's Silky Smooth comment. I had expected his comment would only apply to AP2 cars, but I'm impressed with the smoothness of the system now. But I don't look away for more then a moment and my hands are always ready to catch that "teenage swerve" FNAR.


There has been absolutely no acknowledgement from anyone at Tesla or from my Service Center that any fleet to mothership learning has or is taking place. I have driven the exact same route on my daily commute since March 2017 with my EAP HW2 car and the exact same errors happen with either Auto Steer / TACC or both engaged. There are several areas that I HAVE to cancel AS / TACC if there is anyone anywhere near me due to the dangerous maneuvers EAP makes.

I am sorry to say I really don't believe that anything you wrote about possible learning is actually happening.
 
Forget the AP stuff, let's just look at TACC. On my Audi, it's TACC equivalent has been 100% flawless in the 13 months I've owned it. Zero occasions where it has randomly decelerated, or failed to see a car in front of it. On the flip side, my AP2 has had issues with both; it randomly decelerates on the freeway, and has almost rear ended cars in front of me (didn't slow down at all when approaching). At this point i do not trust it at all. I'll engage it when I'm alone on a road to see if it's getting better, but it's a stress inducer instead of a stress reliever when i'm in any sort of traffic.


So to answer your question, no, it's not worth the money.

I agree, I find TACC to be untrustworthy, unfortunately. I have experienced sudden deceleration to 45 mph while driving 65 mph on a local tollway while using Autopilot. The screen says something like "Autosteer restricted to 45mph" or something like that, every time, at a specific part of the toll road. Then the car rapidly decelerates from 65 to 45 mph.

Do you get that same popup message? If not, do you know if any settings can be changed to address that message? Forgive my ignorance.
 
I agree, I find TACC to be untrustworthy, unfortunately. I have experienced sudden deceleration to 45 mph while driving 65 mph on a local tollway while using Autopilot. The screen says something like "Autosteer restricted to 45mph" or something like that, every time, at a specific part of the toll road. Then the car rapidly decelerates from 65 to 45 mph.

Do you get that same popup message? If not, do you know if any settings can be changed to address that message? Forgive my ignorance.
You can try reporting the error to TomTom: Map Share™ Reporter - TomTom
 
I agree, I find TACC to be untrustworthy, unfortunately. I have experienced sudden deceleration to 45 mph while driving 65 mph on a local tollway while using Autopilot. The screen says something like "Autosteer restricted to 45mph" or something like that, every time, at a specific part of the toll road. Then the car rapidly decelerates from 65 to 45 mph.

Do you get that same popup message? If not, do you know if any settings can be changed to address that message? Forgive my ignorance.

Its also very aggressive when this deceleration happens which is very uncomfortable and almost panic inducing. I can't imagine anyone who would want to slow down and speed up so aggressively to maintain distance with traffic and follow speed changes. Its like 60-60-60-60 BAM 40 and everyone in the car lunges forward like something went really wrong.
 
17.32.6 ca28227 doesn't add any new features but it does perform better. I'm not sure what is going on with @alcibiades' car. I drive all around Chicago and while my car has departed the center of the lane during stop and go it never rides ON the lane lines. It will just drift a bit (generally left).

I'd file a lemon case against Tesla since your car is defective and I know you've given them ample opportunity to get it fixed. If you haven't tried Highland Park, they seem to be the best service center in our area.

Illinois Attorney General - Lemon Law

If you ever get an AP2 loaner, I'd be curious to see if the same thing happens or if it really is just your car. Its just so odd that your car KNOWS it is on the lane lines and still fails to correct that issue.

I find AP2 to be more than a souring debacle. The delays and lack of knowledge of the issue among Tesla employees is not even as frustrating as the entire lack of communication from the company. Silence is better than being lied to but after all the lies, silence is even more aggravating. Tesla seems arrogant to bilk so many people and think they can just send out incremental updates without substantively addressing what is going on and why, 9 months after I was told "parity" we still don't have parity. They should be ashamed but clearly they aren't.
 
Installed 17.32.6 ca28227 and ran a test highway loop I have been running with every new update. For me, AP did worse, hugging the left lane line in a sweeping curve (had not done this prior). Hard to judge, but felt as if it regressed in curves from 17.28 c528869...

Also was refusing to lane change a few times, when clearly it should not have had a problem given the road and traffic. Noticed a few other changes for the worse from the last 2 updates. Am reserving judgement until putting more miles on this release, which should be about 200 or so this weekend.
 
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Installed 17.32.6 ca28227 and ran a test highway loop I have been running with every new update. For me, AP did worse, hugging the left lane line in a sweeping curve (had not done this prior). Hard to judge, but felt as if it regressed in curves from 17.28 c528869...

Also was refusing to lane change a few times, when clearly it should not have had a problem given the road and traffic. Noticed a few other changes for the worse from the last 2 updates. Am reserving judgement until putting more miles on this release, which should be about 200 or so this weekend.

Joe,

I see the updates on the list but the car still has 17.28 and no sign of an installed update pending. Is there a setting that allows me to manually force the update?
 
17.32.6 ca28227 doesn't add any new features but it does perform better. I'm not sure what is going on with @alcibiades' car. I drive all around Chicago and while my car has departed the center of the lane during stop and go it never rides ON the lane lines. It will just drift a bit (generally left).

I'd file a lemon case against Tesla since your car is defective and I know you've given them ample opportunity to get it fixed. If you haven't tried Highland Park, they seem to be the best service center in our area.

Illinois Attorney General - Lemon Law

If you ever get an AP2 loaner, I'd be curious to see if the same thing happens or if it really is just your car. Its just so odd that your car KNOWS it is on the lane lines and still fails to correct that issue.
Well, I called Tesla up and started talking to them about whether I should file a lemon law complaint. They of course asked me to hold on and they will now (after over a month) finally forward my images and information to someone in service.

I find AP2 to be more than a souring debacle. The delays and lack of knowledge of the issue among Tesla employees is not even as frustrating as the entire lack of communication from the company. Silence is better than being lied to but after all the lies, silence is even more aggravating. Tesla seems arrogant to bilk so many people and think they can just send out incremental updates without substantively addressing what is going on and why, 9 months after I was told "parity" we still don't have parity. They should be ashamed but clearly they aren't.
@JonMc -- please. Everything @croman says above.
 
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Joe,

I see the updates on the list but the car still has 17.28 and no sign of an installed update pending. Is there a setting that allows me to manually force the update?

Updates are pushed out randomly in batches. The only thing you can do to slightly speed up your updates is to connect to wifi periodically. Without wifi your car may wait a few days after getting an update before it attempts to download it.

There's two handy resources for tracking update rollout:
http://firmware.teslafi.com
Tesla Firmware Upgrade Tracker Web App

TeslaFi's customer base is showing 17.28 on 63.9% of AP2 cars, while 17.32.6 is on 17.8%. So… you're far from alone for being on 2017.28 still. (I'm in the same boat)
 
So, unless I misunderstand the way Tesla EAP/AI system is functioning, I think we should be teaching the system ourselves, as good experienced drivers, and not allowing EAP in its nascent stages so be figuring it out by itself

You know the play/movie The Music Man? The protagonist is an earlier-day Elon Musk, who makes up attractive stories to sell his product and then begins to half believe them himself.

Our cars are as likely to learn from experience as our toasters. I won't believe otherwise until someone shows me some documented evidence.
 
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What a great thread with a lot of data/opinions! Thanks to all posters. I learn a lot whenever I visit this site!

1. I have experienced a plethora (love that word...rolls off the keyboard nicely!) of ghost stops with these 8.1 updates. It is worrisome indeed as the folks behind me are thinking "What is this dumb sob doing now......". My point is that during the FIRST episode my peripheral vision picked up the little "speed limit" sign on the small display changing to "5 mph". Whaaaaat? Wait. I am seeing (peripheral) the REAL road sign posted at 40 mph. I was poised over the accelerator for some reason anyway and speeding up was non eventful. Since then EVERY ghost break (brake?)has presented me with a 5mph mini speed limit sign in my display. I believe there may be much work going on with recognition of speed limit signs, stop signs, traffic lights.... and we are seeing some early "results". On my road next to my home the speed limit is 30mph, however the road dept has attached supplemental signs above and below the speed limit sign (one indicating school ahead, etc.). so.... my little dash sign tells me it recognized 40mph and therefore I am allowed a blistering 45mph on EAP. Like others, I experienced overpass braking and "take every exit on the freeway" on the earlier versions of EAP. I do not experience that at all any more. But the pulling to the left has become hair raising!

2. The pull to the left. Or sometimes: HAL (my car's name as it approximates 2001 A Space Oddity (sic))....Hal says: "Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that." and JERKS into the left lane attempting a quick kill. ..........Later, when I am in control... I like the fact the car gives me a little vibration when I near a line....but does it NOT give itself indications during EAP when there is a THUMP THUMP THUMP from running over road buttons on the left lane lines? Even to minimalist A.I. ...that could be ...you know...an indicator that ....Me: "HAL...YOU ARE STEERING TO FAR TO THE LEFT!" (the voice MIGHT be in my head..but I seem to hear HAL clearly.when he answers) His response after the left jerks: HAL: "This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it." Me: "Huh?"

3. I love this car. Amazing. In an earlier thread I loved the quote some one made (and I have since stole it for myself): "I can't believe how much I love a car that is trying to kill me!" Oh HAL, I think I get you. When my wife drove my car and went the "long" route home she commented on the "attention" required when EAP is engaged. She said "OMGosh...this is really intense compared to just driving myself. I am watching, listening, prepared for anything. Getting a headache." Ok. Duly noted. (HAL said nothing and was unusually silent !?) Later, and in subsequent days when we take my car (instead of her BRZ) she excitedly asks "Can I drive and use EAP?" Sure. Something about the experience. She was excited about EAP and getting into the "intense zone"! Hmmmmm HAL comments next time I am in the car alone: HAL: "Dave, although you took very thorough precautions in the pod against my hearing you, I could see your lips move." Me: "My name is not Dave. Dave's not home."

4. To the poster who lives in the state of Washington commenting on wiper's. Yeah, I live here in WA too. However the "sensing" on my first Tesla (I am on my second one) had it working and it certainly was not "sensed" for Seattle! On ANY setting the windshield would be pretty much blanked out with rain before that first "sensed" swipe. Yikes. One more distraction as I would try to balance the two settings and have it work any where near just the plain "10 levels of delay" my Nissan Truck had. The sensing did not seem to sense rain on the windshield....maybe underwater at the Green River? Oh well, i told myself not to stress about it and keep my attention on driving. So even when or if we get it back let's compare notes on effectiveness in rainy Seattle, OK? "HAL: Look Dave, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over. " Me: I am not Dave. Dave's not home.
 
When I first picked up my model S (HW2), it had the non TACC cruise control, and it is the best cruise control of any car I've owned. I always drive using cruise control, partly because I'm lazy, but mostly because I don't have to continually monitor the speedometer to maintain the speed limit. TACC is so problematic that I am reluctant to use it, especially on bright sunny days when there are shadows, so I miss not having a basic cruise control. I have written to Tesla asking to make the old cruise control optional, ie being able to toggle between TACC and non-TACC by pressing the cancel lever three times, and the set speed display could change from blue to red or something. This could also be useful even when TACC gets sorted out in conditions where snow or mud has affected the sensors, although I don't really know if this is a problem. The reason I mention this is that Tesla may not be willing to admit that their system is faulty, and this provides them with a justification for supplying the feature. If you agree this would be a useful feature, perhaps you could reinforce my request to Tesla. If enough of us ask for it, they may actually do it, and I imagine the software involved would be pretty minimal.
 
Machine learning seems to simply not be working.
And why don't I hear of a simply voice command feature to alert Tesla of an AP failure, so they can take the relevant data (say from 20 seconds back) and analize?

Seems Tesla are just coding along and not learning from mistakes the cars are making in real life. If only specific employees get to expose themselves to AP and then act on flaws THEY find, this is going to be a very long development plan. People will die from cars freaking out over nothing, even if a minute before another Tesla made it through the same lane without AP unscaved.

By now surely, car should know what lines to expect on the road, even at construction sites? The first Tesla to meet the new lines will record them as new. With AP, it will either guess things right, or fail. The failure will be analized, or the cloud will learn from the human driver just breezing through AP-less.
Tesla has opened their hand, explained their tools. Where and when will we see that they've unboxed these tools? More and more reports that other brands simply do better on the simple AI stuff. Are Tesla going backwards? They lost a lot of employees, maybe too many? I hear Elon is getting involved himsef now, and making it even harder to hold on to dedicated workers in the department?
 
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If a Tesla relies so much on tracking the car in front...you're basically dead meat when the car in front happens to be a Tesla as well? Can you ever be safer than a human driver if you rely so much on the car in front showing the way?
Within a year, the likelihood that the car in front is Tesla on AP may increase more than twofold or threefold. And then there are other brands doing their own versions with varying degrees of success.
The overpasses were there years ago in most cases. How can Tesla still not prevent ghost braking if hundreds or thousands of Teslas successfully make it through? Aren't all light and traffic circumstances covered by now?

From what I gather, the concerns of owners are not about slow progress, but about increased likelihood for the car to mess up royally. Perhaps AP manages to stay engaged in more situations than at some point in the past, but if this is immediately met with an increased in f-ups...is that slow progress or unwise risk increase despite lack of progress made?
 
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