Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[DJRas]

Is this all you need to scan to a laptop or Android? no cables needed?

No, you also need a cable adapter from the Tesla data port connector to the OBD scanner.

Diagnostic Port Index

 

[faughtz]

I have certainly read that they employ this policy. Of course we can always say, if you dispute the figures feel free to show your own, and we can discuss.

I wonder if arbitration services or courts would be so picky.

I’ll find out tomorrow at my arbitration hearing. I’m bringing data.

 

[Chaserr]

Yes, they can. An etron owner can fully charge their battery. Set the dial to maximum, and charge.

No they can't. Audi sells the cars rated to "100%" in air quotes because it's still less than a full charge and you see that going in, no hidden decreases post-purchase. They can increase 100% to a higher number by allowing the cells to be charged to full voltage and that's fine because it is better than original, but they don't have to because like with Tesla's S40, software locked S60, software locked S75 and base model SR- Model 3 the voltage limit was rated by the EPA and sold in that state.

The problem is with this class action's victims Tesla went the other way and decreased battery capacity below what was sold and rated by the EPA. A battery limited like this will never have had the ability to reach EPA certifications and is a bait and switch. They will also never have had the ability to reach advertised power or acceleration numbers.

Wouldn't these cases prove that the limits were artificial and not "normal degradation"? These owners' experiences may be valuable data points in @DJRas' lawsuit as it shows the cap was artificial and reversible. Normal degradation is not reversible.

Correct. This is why Tesla is supposedly returning the missing kWh.

A Tesla owner in Germany received a written explanation concerning the firmware based capacity loss and uploaded it on facebook.
It was made available to the service center by Tesla-HQ and unfortunately it has been poorly translated into german before it was handed out to him.
(IMO the last paragraph reveals that this wasn't meant to be a handout for the customer. ;-))

I tried to make a rough translation back to english (I don't have a ESL certificate)

Thank you for posting this evidence.

The cells have accumulated sufficient wear, mainly through DC charging, but also through regular cycles, and charging cells to the same level as when new would result in accelerated cell depletion (both in terms of capacity retention and performance).
The system has adapted to the state of the cell and gradually adjusted the maximum state of charge of the cells over several weeks to reduce the long-term retention of capacity and performance.

The system can reduce the maximum state of charge of the cells by about 10% compared to the original state of charge.

From there, the cell is operated in an optimal range to maximize long-term retention and performance and to stabilize the range at full charge.

Make sure towards the customer that adjusting the maximum charge limit is, in most cases, a one-time event and means that the range [does not] continue to slip.
The system implements this proactive precaution to ensure that the cells of the HV battery have years and thousands of kilometers left to counteract accelerated cell wear, which would lead to a loss of capacity and a loss of performance.

 

[DJRas]

My RM increased to ~4-5 miles @90%. No way to measure the vMax in my case. But I believe others with the CANBUS tools have reported no vMax increase.

Yes, there is a comparable increase in vMax... but only those of us with CANBUS readers can see it.

 

[davidc18]

Good luck and keep us updated.

 

[davidc18]

Get your cable here: Products – Maxwell Automotive Technologies

 

[davidc18]

the port is behind and above the cubby.

 

[lightningltd]

Anyone get 2019.28.3 yet? Looks like just AP2.x so far. Still waiting for the update that removes the darn limits

 

[Chaserr]

Yes, there is a comparable increase in vMax... but only those of us with CANBUS readers can see it.

I don't need to tell you but keep a log. I'm still certain that they are avoiding a dramatic 10% increase instantly to avoid the bad press that would bring and are intentionally distributing gradual increase in vmax over time. I also don't think you'll get back 4.2 based on their language and am expecting a stabilized vmax limit to 95% of actual capacity.

 

[DJRas]

I don't think they changed the vmax remotely, they cleared a trouble/fault code from the BMS and the BMS adjusted the vmax itself as a result. I'm sure they could clear the fault/trouble codes on all the cars impacted from this issue remotely and the range would come back, at least until the BMS detected the issue again and set the code again resulting in the range being restricted again.

There are NO faults reported from our batteries. I have posted the report from the $253 test they did on my car.
With no faults it is just "normal degradation".
Except they DID cap the vmax with 2019.16.x and have been slowly raising vmax with 2019.28.x
Therefor NOT "normal degradation"

 

[mjmiron]

I’ll find out tomorrow at my arbitration hearing. I’m bringing data.

please share what you learn as I am supposed to hear back as well from my states Attorney General the 10 day limit is almost up.

 

[cpa]

They have done this as well for people who heavily use SCs, not to disincentivize them, but purportedly to protect the pack. I haven't run into throttling, but I understand the throttle is to 90kW from the ~103kW I'm getting now. That peak doesn't last long anyway, so I don't think it's much of a disincentive for me at this point.

Ohmman, I noticed that not only is the peak rate throttled, but the entire taper is throttled. I recently drove the longer and more scenic route to Pismo. I plugged in at Monterey with 11%. The rate spiked at 127kW (a new personal best!) for five seconds before trickling down to about 90 or so. By 50%, the rate was below 50kW. In my younger days, the car would not decline to 50kW until closer to 60% full. Generally, at 70% the rate was around 40kW; recently it was ~32kW.

When I compare my trip to Cincinnati in May with my most recent journey, a charge from ~15% to ~75% takes about 15 minutes longer.

I will try to clock my charging times when I leave tomorrow for the North Coast and see actual results. My unscientific guess is that every 400 miles driven on the Supercharger highway will now take close to an hour longer, depending upon arrival and departure levels.

 

[qwk]

I don't think they changed the vmax remotely, they cleared a trouble/fault code from the BMS and the BMS adjusted the vmax itself as a result. I'm sure they could clear the fault/trouble codes on all the cars impacted from this issue remotely and the range would come back, at least until the BMS detected the issue again and set the code again resulting in the range being restricted again.

Thats not how it works. They build a custom firmware and send it to the car. Just like in the early days of firmware updates.

 

[MP3Mike]

Thats not how it works. They build a custom firmware and send it to the car. Just like in the early days of firmware updates.

Where is that information coming from?

 

[Chaserr]

If people ***are*** getting custom firmware, Contact one of the forum hackers before you install it and let them pull the staged update before you apply it. It would be educational to check what's different from everyone else.

 

[Leeboy22001]

It seems to me that Tesla has done something to start the return of lost range. More and more people saying they got a little bit back last night. Not a lot, just a little. Thinks. How is that actually being affected? Are they having to tweak, ever so slightly, the cell voltage again, just to squeeze a couple of miles out of it. Sounds a bit sneaky if that is what they are doing. I would imagine that such reports might be viewed by an 'independent source' as evidence that Tesla actually are beginning to solve the problem. Has anyone checked if their voltage has been adjusted?

I can confirm max cell voltage is being slowly increased, mine is now at 4.088V, was 4.077V before 2019.28.2, but has very very slowly been increasing, but has slowed right down. Increase has been 3%, from my original 11% loss since 2019.16.x.

 

[boywonder]

I can confirm max cell voltage is being slowly increased, mine is now at 4.088V, was 4.077V before 2019.28.2, but has very very slowly been increasing, but has slowed right down. Increase has been 3%, from my original 11% loss since 2019.16.x.

Out of curiosity does anyone have a graph available showing the relationship between cell voltage and capacity (SOC?)?

Just trying to understand how a change in Vmax from 4.077 to 4.088 represents a 3% increase in capacity.

Is the minimum cell voltage limited to 3.6V?

 

[PaulusdB]

Just my latest data points.

• supercharged twice to almost 100% since installing 2019.28.2
• charging still reduced by ~12 kW at midpoint (50% SoC)
  
• first time no range increase, max still 325 km (~202 mls)
• second time range increase of 8 km, max now 333 km (~207 mls)

 

[Leeboy22001]

Out of curiosity does anyone have a graph available showing the relationship between cell voltage and capacity (SOC?)?

Just trying to understand how a change in Vmax from 4.077 to 4.088 represents a 3% increase in capacity.

Is the minimum cell voltage limited to 3.6V?

I stand corrected, the increase at 4.088V was more like 2%, as typical range at 4.078 was 161, and 164 at 4.088V, its now up to 165 (3%).

I also have a few other data points at different SoC, and worked out min cell voltage (0%) to be 3.188V.

99.8% = 4.077v (50.2kWh)
85.6% = 3.950 (43.3kWh)
55.3% = 3.714 (29kWh)
54.6% = 3.710 (28.7kWh)
Diff = 14.2% = 0.127 = 0.0089v per 1%
0.890v 100% range
3.188V 0%
4.078v 100%

This is a 2014 S60.

 

[David99]

The document from the German service center is interesting. It seems they notice that the battery is degrading, and very high charge levels would cause accelerated degradation and ultimately make the battery fail. The interesting part to me is that they limit the top charge level. It tells me that high SoC is worse than we thought. And as the battery gets older high levels of charge become even more damaging.

I have supercharged a lot. 160k miles of my total of 223k miles were on superchargers. That's more DC charging than probably anyone else in this discussion. I probably also have the highest mileage car here. And I live in a very warm climate. All factors that are bad for the battery. Yet I'm unaffected. I believe the reason is that from day one I have been vigorous about only charging as much as I need for the next day. I almost never charge to 90% just because. Also, I have been using the timer and an app to delay charging so it would finish just minutes before I leave in the morning. Both these things have kept the average state of charge over time much lower than the standard method of plugging in at the end of the day and letting it charge to 90 right away.

Given that I have some of the highest supercharge amount, live in a hot climate and drove many more miles than all affected cars makes me think that 'state of charge' is the biggest factor for battery degradation. That's the one thing I was able to keep relatively low over the entire 5 years of ownership. All other factors/conditions are highly unfavorable for my battery.