Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[DJRas]

ICE cars also degrade -- through other mechanisms, usually through reduced mechanical efficiency in the engine. I've yet to see the first class action suit about that.

I'm happy that it didn't happen to your Prius, but I have other experiences.

The suit is not about degradation.
This reduction is range has nothing to do with normal degradation

 

[Gixx1300R]

ICE cars also degrade -- through other mechanisms, usually through reduced mechanical efficiency in the engine. I've yet to see the first class action suit about that.

These examples are about fuel economy lawsuits, there is case law on the books about decreased travel mileage. It is not about degradation

Ford F-150 Fuel Economy Lawsuit Seeks $1.2B

Compensation Information - Hyundai MPG Info

Compensation - Kia MPG Info

https://www.cars.com/articles/2012/01/honda-sued-over-fuel-economy-claims/

Chevy Sonic Gas Mileage Lawsuit Says MPG is Wrong

 

[sixela]

The suit is not about degradation.
This reduction is range has nothing to do with normal degradation

That's what you say, but the fact the BMS suddenly made new decisions does not mean that the underlying changes in the battery weren't gradual and are that these are "not degradation". I see it repeated time and again as a mantra on this thread, but I hope (for their sake) that the people involved in the class action don't try to make this argument, because it's a losing one.

 

[sixela]

Ford F-150 Fuel Economy Lawsuit Seeks $1.2B

Compensation Information - Hyundai MPG Info

Compensation - Kia MPG Info

https://www.cars.com/articles/2012/01/honda-sued-over-fuel-economy-claims/

Chevy Sonic Gas Mileage Lawsuit Says MPG is Wrong

Those are not about degradation of fuel economy with age, but about EPA ratings changes for the same new car. But thanks for trying (really, without sarcasm, since they are indeed interesting links).

 

[bhzmark]

Ford F-150 Fuel Economy Lawsuit Seeks $1.2B

Compensation Information - Hyundai MPG Info

Compensation - Kia MPG Info

https://www.cars.com/articles/2012/01/honda-sued-over-fuel-economy-claims/

Chevy Sonic Gas Mileage Lawsuit Says MPG is Wrong

Are those for degradation over time, like a laptop or phone (or car) battery ?

Or are those for simply not publishing accurate initial EPA methodology MPG numbers in the first place?

 

[sorka]

If anything using CHAdeMO is likely worse for your battery than using a Supercharger. I think the research shows that the time spent charging is worse than faster charging. So CHAdeMO puts you right in the bad spot, fast enough to create heat/degradation but slow enough that it adds up more than using a quicker Supercharger.

From prior information Tesla treats CHAdeMO kWhs added the same as Supercharger kWhs added. (For example in the number of kWhs of DC charging before they start throttling.)

Exactly what Jeff Dahn said:

Does Repeated Supercharging Shorten Life of Battery Even at 90%?

 

[DJRas]

That's what you say, but the fact the BMS suddenly made new decisions does not mean that the underlying changes in the battery weren't gradual and are that these are "not degradation". I see it repeated time and again as a mantra on this thread, but I hope (for their sake) that the people involved in the class action don't try to make this argument, because it's a losing one.

The BMS did not suddenly make a decision.
Tesla downloaded an update that limited it.

There is clearly nothing degraded about the battery if they restore the range with a new update.

 

[MP3Mike]

Tesla has jumped the shark and is now spewing FUD on their loyal (for now) customer base. Sad. I called the service line today and was told they didn't know about any lawsuit.

Why do you think anyone answering the phone would know anything about the lawsuit? At this point I would think that mainly lawyers, would be involved with maybe some executives, managers, and possibly engineers. Front level staff are unlikely to ever know anything about it.

 

[IngTH]

And I live in a very warm climate. All factors that are bad for the battery.

No, when supercharging higher temperatures are better! The new thermal management is considering this by an increase of max temperature while supercharging.

Of course storage temperature preferably should be low, thats true, but at the end thermal management will always be a compromise (in colder regions because of thermal latency of the pack).

 

[Droschke]

A Tesla owner in Germany received a written explanation concerning the firmware based capacity loss and uploaded it on facebook.
It was made available to the service center by Tesla-HQ and unfortunately it has been poorly translated into german before it was handed out to him.
(IMO the last paragraph reveals that this wasn't meant to be a handout for the customer. ;-))

I tried to make a rough translation back to english (I don't have a ESL certificate)

Thanks for posting. What's missing in this memo is that this a response to the fire incidences and it's their search for the fire prone batteries.

 

[sixela]

The BMS did not suddenly make a decision.
Tesla downloaded an update that limited it.

Since we’re splitting hairs, let me rephrase it: “a newer version of the BMS made a different decision on how to manage the battery”.

There is clearly nothing degraded about the battery if they restore the range with a new update.

With more data they can also fine tune the decision in the other way. I would expect, if they hone software that detects a condition ignored earlier, they would at first make conservative changes to prevent further degradation and only then decide to become more aggressive again in how they charge batteries, after capturing new data

All batteries except new ones are “degraded”, and even when new some are better than others. Don’t engage in binary thinking: the question is not whether a battery is degraded but how much.

 

[lightningltd]

Since we’re splitting hairs, let me rephrase it: “a newer version of the BMS made a different decision on how to manage the battery”.


With more data they can also fine tune the decision in the other way. I would expect, if they hone software that detects a condition ignored earlier, they would at first make conservative changes to prevent further degradation and only then decide to become more aggressive again in how they charge batteries, after capturing new data

All batteries except new ones are “degraded”, and even when new some are better than others. Don’t engage in binary thinking: the question is not whether a battery is degraded but how much.

You are assuming there is unfound degradation. Tesla has not said this or anything. Degradation is not what this is about.

 

[Droschke]

Wouldn't these cases prove that the limits were artificial and not "normal degradation"? These owners' experiences may be valuable data points in @DJRas' lawsuit as it shows the cap was artificial and reversible. Normal degradation is not reversible.

Excellent point!

 

[David99]

Interesting information.
As you know I am probably number 2 in the supercharging about 100,000 miles out of my 140,000 miles.
I rarely charged to more than 90% (10 times in the year prior to May 2019).
I did charge most of that to 90% but immediately drove after that to about 60%-65% SOC where it would sit at work or at home.
Typically went between 30% and 90% SOC (now 15% to 90% because of the range reduction).
Also, warm climate southern California.

But, mine has been severely impacted ( with a bit restored now).

If I remember correctly you got the car second hand? Maybe the previous owner charged high a lot.

 

[Todd Burch]

Data point:

i’ve had 28.2 for about a week and still no improvement to my 90% range. Still 214 when it should be somewhere closer to 228.

I drove >1100mi this weekend in my S. Legs of my trip took me down to as low as 15 mi remaining. By the end of the trip my 90% charge had not changed.

At one Supercharger I hit 130kW, which I’ve never seen in the car before. Unfortunately it lasted about 5 seconds before it tapered off. By the time I was at 50% SOC, I was charging around 50kW.

Seemed slower than usual, even at charging sites with no other cars.

 

[DJRas]

If I remember correctly you got the car second hand? Maybe the previous owner charged high a lot.

No, maybe 5,000 of the 105,000 miles I did the vast majority. He had a short commute (32,000 miles in 2.5 years)

 

[Droschke]

The document from the German service center is interesting. It seems they notice that the battery is degrading, and very high charge levels would cause accelerated degradation and ultimately make the battery fail. The interesting part to me is that they limit the top charge level. It tells me that high SoC is worse than we thought. And as the battery gets older high levels of charge become even more damaging.

I have supercharged a lot. 160k miles of my total of 223k miles were on superchargers. That's more DC charging than probably anyone else in this discussion. I probably also have the highest mileage car here. And I live in a very warm climate. All factors that are bad for the battery. Yet I'm unaffected. I believe the reason is that from day one I have been vigorous about only charging as much as I need for the next day. I almost never charge to 90% just because. Also, I have been using the timer and an app to delay charging so it would finish just minutes before I leave in the morning. Both these things have kept the average state of charge over time much lower than the standard method of plugging in at the end of the day and letting it charge to 90 right away.

Given that I have some of the highest supercharge amount, live in a hot climate and drove many more miles than all affected cars makes me think that 'state of charge' is the biggest factor for battery degradation. That's the one thing I was able to keep relatively low over the entire 5 years of ownership. All other factors/conditions are highly unfavorable for my battery.

Thanks for the info David. I wish Tesla would have given the same advice throughout these years. Remember "A Plugged in Tesla is a Happy Tesla"? That's what I was told and did. On top of that, there was no recommendation against charging to 90%. Well, too late now.

 

[Droschke]

Heck, even ICE cars of a certain age consume more fuel and have reduced range compared to their new as-certified siblings.

My ICE cars always got better in gas mileage than when new.

 

[DJRas]

Since we’re splitting hairs, let me rephrase it: “a newer version of the BMS made a different decision on how to manage the battery”.


With more data they can also fine tune the decision in the other way. I would expect, if they hone software that detects a condition ignored earlier, they would at first make conservative changes to prevent further degradation and only then decide to become more aggressive again in how they charge batteries, after capturing new data

All batteries except new ones are “degraded”, and even when new some are better than others. Don’t engage in binary thinking: the question is not whether a battery is degraded but how much.

If they had to come up with a whole new algorithm that only affect "very few" vehicles then again, it is not "normal degradation over time" (wording from the warranty).

 

[fbitz777]

I think limiting the top end like Audi (by 10%?) might have been a great idea for Tesla since DAY 1:

-It allows Regen to work right from a "full charge" ...I never liked that lack of Regen when starting a trip.

-It will increase battery life and they could increase the top end over the years to keep the original rated range and make customers happy. Obviously less warranty claims.

All Tesla needed to do is give us batteries with 5kwh more of cells. OR just say my X75 is actually a X70 ....I would have saved on brake wear and be no worse in rated miles as I am now after 2.5 years.