Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[sorka]

It's mind bugling that even after the publication of the electrek article quoting the Tesla's response, the Service Centers are still saying this is "normal"!

Given the 691 hp debacle, it's not even a little bit surprising. This is different though in that the hp scandal they sold us something they never gave us. In this case they sold it and gave it to us and then took it back later.

 

[sorka]

85D here reporting no major degradation, still 240 miles at 90% which was the same as it was when checked it around May 31st, 2016 85D pre facelift, 2/16 manufacturer date. 45k miles. 2019.16.2

What's interesting is it's starting to look like those that already have moderate degradation are the ones NOT effected.

240 miles on an 85D is already 11% degradation which is crazy high after only 45K miles. I have more than double your miles and have less than half the degradation you have.

 

[electronblue]

Given the 691 hp debacle, it's not even a little bit surprising. This is different though in that the hp scandal they sold us something they never gave us. In this case they sold it and gave it to us and then took it back later.

True. But as said this is not the first time Tesla takes something back either. A benign early example was the removal of lowest settings in the air suspension of Model S (incidentally to protect against crash fire) which was followed by doing ”the right thing” with retrofitting more battery shielding.

After that it has been downhill.... Tesla has limited both Performance model launches as well as DC fast-charging based on later software updates and hidden counters seemingly to lessen warranty obligations. They never ”made these right” in hardware though a court case forced them back a bit on the former.

 

[sorka]

True. But as said this is not the first time Tesla taks something back either. A benign early example was the removal of lowest settings in the air suspension of Model S (incidentally to protect against crash fire) which was followed by doing ”the right thing” with retrofitting more battery shielding.

After that it has been downhill.... Tesla has limited both Performance model launches as well as DC fast-charging based on later software updates and hidden counters seemingly to lessen warranty obligations.

...and yet they never gave back the 1" they raised the car. I had to use lowering links to get it back down to what it had been before I stopped destroy set after set of cv half shafts. On 5 set now for 23K miles and the issue hasn't returned.

 

[electronblue]

...and yet they never gave back the 1" they raised the car. I had to use lowering links to get it back down to what it had been before I stopped destroy set after set of cv half shafts. On 5 set now for 23K miles and the issue hasn't returned.

That is true.

Same with the launch performance counters. They did roll them back somewhat but not fully after the court case.

 

[bmah]

What's interesting is it's starting to look like those that already have moderate degradation are the ones NOT effected.

240 miles on an 85D is already 11% degradation which is crazy high after only 45K miles. I have more than double your miles and have less than half the degradation you have.

No, he had 240 miles at 90% charge. That extrapolates to a full charge of 266 miles, which is (I think) only 1.3% degradation off of the original 270 miles rated. for the S85D.

Bruce.

 

[faughtz]

Actually, I can think of 691 reasons why they probably did what they did intentionally

762, if you count Ludicrous.

 

[faughtz]

No one?!

I uploaded two files to you in a tmc private conversation.

 

[Droschke]

What's interesting is it's starting to look like those that already have moderate degradation are the ones NOT effected.

This actually matches my case. Prior to 16.2, my RM was astonishingly high about 263-265 @100% (265 on day one), showing virtually no loss. Now I've this 30 miles sudden drop.

 

[Whiteblaze]

My 100% range has dropped substantially over the last few weeks. It was 244 miles for as long as I can remember. Now it is 215.

Dec 2014 P85D, 112k miles

 

[faughtz]

My 100% range has dropped substantially over the last few weeks. It was 244 miles for as long as I can remember. Now it is 215.

Dec 2014 P85D, 112k miles

I have the same car - 238 down to 212. Have you measured your performance loss? I lost over 40kW.

 

[BigNick]

Charged overnight to an indicated 90%. Car showed 225 miles of range. Cells appear to have a true 90% charge:

Charged to 100% (or attempted to do so) but the car stopped at 98%. Tried again after adjusting charge level in the app and it stopped at 99%. Not 4.2V but close:

So what I am not sure about is my low power output. I heated the battery to Max (109.2F to 112.7F when reported “Ready”) and made a 0-60 run at a reported 90% SOC):

With a P85DL, at 90% I should be closer to 450kW. So definitely less power than I should be getting.

How accurate is the PowerTools app on iOS? Would extra weight (aka the driver’s spare tire) throw off the kW calculations?

Would TM-Spy get the kW values straight out of the CANBUS?

TLDR: It appears that my kW numbers are low, and if my car is down on power, it doesn’t look like it is due to ~10% lowered cell voltages as far as I can see.

 

[Whiteblaze]

I have the same car - 238 down to 212. Have you measured your performance loss? I lost over 40kW.

I have not... I don't know how to do that so I don't have a baseline to compare anyway. 40kW sounds like a lot! Subjectively it feels a lot less punchy than before, especially in the 30-50 mph range. I feel like my wife's non-performance Model 3 is actually quicker in that range these days.

 

[BigNick]

Forgot to mention: Battery part number is 1074978-00-B. Battery serial number is close to the last 6 of my VIN, but not an exact match.

Just under 27K miles, July 2015 build. The lifetime charge and discharge kW seem rather high - more than half a kW per mile driven.

 

[faughtz]

I have not... I don't know how to do that so I don't have a baseline to compare anyway. 40kW sounds like a lot! Subjectively it feels a lot less punchy than before, especially in the 30-50 mph range. I feel like my wife's non-performance Model 3 is actually quicker in that range these days.

Power tools (see post 313, last pic) or Teslemetry are two apps I use.

 

[VT_EE]

This actually matches my case. Prior to 16.2, my RM was astonishingly high about 263-265 @100% (265 on day one), showing virtually no loss. Now I've this 30 miles sudden drop.

Curious. It’s highly unlikely that your battery would have no degradation at all. It’s more likely that some bug they had was not properly degrading the rated miles and these software versions fixed the bug. Unfortunately people are seeing the proper degradation applied all at once instead of over a period of years. If this is the case, then Tesla was over charging based on real degradation, which was a safety hazard. Definitely a dumpster fire PR problem.

 

[VT_EE]

My 100% range has dropped substantially over the last few weeks. It was 244 miles for as long as I can remember. Now it is 215.

Dec 2014 P85D, 112k miles

It looks like your car new was supposed to have 253 miles of range. Now you are down 15% from that at 215. That sounds reasonable for a vehicle that is 5 years old with 112k miles. My theory is the BMS has been miscalculating your actual degradation all along.

 

[apacheguy]

MY X75 lost 5 miles of range (222 down to 217) at 100 percent charge right after the update.

HOWEVER now I get SOME REGEN (half) when I start the trip at 100 "indicated" SOC....which means that Tesla has not really charged my car to the same 100 percent as it used to (had no REGEN at 100 percent before)

This is consistent with Tesla limiting the maximum cell voltage to 4.1 V (just a hair over 90% in my S85).

People most affected are posting 63 kwh as the new capacity and the new 3.9v maximum is the old 80% charge voltage, so one could point to their monroney sticker to argue tesla took almost the full $10k 85 package away.

3.9 V per cell is actually just below 70% SOC on my S85. I call BS on the Electrek article on that point. If Tesla limited to 3.9 V owners would be reporting much more significant range loss. All signs point to a 4.1 V limit.

Charged overnight to an indicated 90%. Car showed 225 miles of range. Cells appear to have a true 90% charge:
View attachment 421735

Charged to 100% (or attempted to do so) but the car stopped at 98%. Tried again after adjusting charge level in the app and it stopped at 99%. Not 4.2V but close:
View attachment 421738

So what I am not sure about is my low power output. I heated the battery to Max (109.2F to 112.7F when reported “Ready”) and made a 0-60 run at a reported 90% SOC):
View attachment 421744

With a P85DL, at 90% I should be closer to 450kW. So definitely less power than I should be getting.

How accurate is the PowerTools app on iOS? Would extra weight (aka the driver’s spare tire) throw off the kW calculations?

Would TM-Spy get the kW values straight out of the CANBUS?

TLDR: It appears that my kW numbers are low, and if my car is down on power, it doesn’t look like it is due to ~10% lowered cell voltages as far as I can see.

Was the battery warm?

 

[Muffinman]

This is interesting. Unfortunately we have had our two TMS 85 on %-display, but I will do range charges on both this weekend to check BMS data and cell voltages @ 100%. We have a 2013 P85 and a 2015 85D, and the latter abruptly lost some 35% of supercharging power after update - easily adding like 10-15 minutes to every charging stop. That would mean 10-ish hours of extra supercharging time through our holiday trip.

Will report back here on my numbers on full charge.

No change on our 2013 P85@100k miles. Charges to 100%/223 miles, nominal full pack 73,2. Scan my Tesla reports 4,198 on highest cell just before completing charge, and pack voltage 402v. Dropped ever so slightly after complete. Battery pumps and powertrain pumps were running after charging complete, and some 0,8A were pulled from the HV battery when reading.

2019.16.2.73d3f3c

Not sure if this app calculates cell voltages correctly, but at this point our P85 does noe seem to be affected. Will test our 85D later.

 

[DJRas]

More data.
I got my own CANBUS reader and checked during charging.
The speculation that thos update reduced the 100% charge state to 3.9 volts (instead of 4.2 volts) is incorrect. My car got to about 4.1 volts while charging at 97% (2kW charge rate regulated by the car).
However, the battery now reports the "nominal full pack" is now 64.3 kWh minus 4kWh reserve and "usable full pack" 60.3 kWh.

I also hooked up to someone elses 2014 S 85 that has not been updated (2018.26 rev). He has 103,000 miles on his odometer and a "nominal full pack" 72.8 kWh, "usable full pack" 68.8 kWh with a maximum rated range of 247 miles.

This is where MY car was prior to the update. Unfortunately, i don't have CANBUS data on my car prior to the update. But, it certainly appears that with this update Tesla removed 8.5kWh capacity from MY battery.