AwlBidnz
Old Guy to be driven around for yrs to come
Anything Tesla can do to extend the life of the battery by reducing degradation, saves them &, hopefully us, money.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software
- Thread starter Dutchmeeuw
- Start date
Nope. I owned two of those (wife and daughter). I've done 5, (split between the two) replacements over the years on them and even when they get really bad, the 100% displayed charge was still nearly 4.2 volts measured on the cell after removal.
Your confusing the battery with performance. They slowed performance in order to hide the capacity loss. By slowing the phone down, the battery lasts longer. They got in BIG trouble for this so it's funny that you use THAT as the example. As a result of the multiple class actions, they had to provide $30 battery replacements (essentially free by comparison to the normal price) and as part of the settlement, they had to update iOS to expose the actual battery wear level in settings.
Last edited:
Sorry, but that battery is under load during that report. You'll need to fully charge it, remove it and use a meter to measure the voltage.
As IR increases, the voltage drop while being used also increases and can increase a lot on a really degraded battery. A new battery with almost no IR will show very little voltage drop under normal load in a laptop. It's only valid to correlate resting voltage to SOC.
Last edited:
They could restrict access from 30% to 80% and the battery will last forever(for all intents and purposes). It will also save Tesla and you a ton of money.
Now I could manage that myself and if I needed to once a year charge to 100% for that rare trip when I actually need the range and it won't significantly increase wear. Tesla has now removed that choice which we paid for.
⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️
Village Idiot
It is obvious there are differences of opinion as to what “degradation” means and how Tesla should deal with it. I’ve been doing engineering long enough to know that very little in life is black and white especially when dealing with new technology or new uses of existing technology. You learn and adjust. In my opinion, a warranty replacement should be dependent on a loss of actual usable battery capacity. If Tesla has to limit the SoC to keep the battery operating safely and you fall below the warranty limit as a result, you should get a new battery. It doesn’t matter what causes the degradation, natural or Tesla imposed for safety/longevity. Again, that is the opinion of some of us here, and there are plenty on this forum that think otherwise.
As far as owning up to the problem: wk057 seems to think this whole issue is mainly a due to a software bug that needs fixing. Tesla definitely needs to articulate what is going on. Their current lack of candor is feeding conspiracy theories.
If you have TBZC (Tesla Battery Z Condition), do you realize you have already lost (not save) money?
Last edited:
Following my previous post regarding the disappointing response from Tesla's "battery management team" I just received this note from Tesla's "support":
"Thank you for reaching out to Tesla. I am sorry for the delay in responding to your email.
We are aware that a very small percentage of owners who own older Model S and Model X vehicles may notice a small reduction in range when charging to a maximum state of charge. This occurred following a software update that we released last month to protect the battery and improve battery longevity of Model S and X cars, and does not have any other impact on the vehicle. While charging behavior will always vary based on how a vehicle is driven, charged, vehicle age, and other factors, we are working to improve the impact on range for this small group of owners."
So we are seeing some progress here.
As compared to the previous responses from Tesla that there is nothing wrong with my battery, with this recent correspondence Tesla is finally acknowledging that some owners have experienced a range reduction as a result of last month's software update; and they are working on a fix. I let my local Tesla service manager know that I appreciated his escalating this to a department that would responsibly respond, and that for now I will be holding off on filing an NCDS claim in anticipation of the fix arriving in a timely manner.
I did reply to the support team that while this range reduction may not have a noticeable impact on local commute driving, a 30-mile loss on road trips is significant and not viewed by the affected Tesla owners as "a small reduction in range". I will continue to post any correspondence received from Tesla on this issue.
"Thank you for reaching out to Tesla. I am sorry for the delay in responding to your email.
We are aware that a very small percentage of owners who own older Model S and Model X vehicles may notice a small reduction in range when charging to a maximum state of charge. This occurred following a software update that we released last month to protect the battery and improve battery longevity of Model S and X cars, and does not have any other impact on the vehicle. While charging behavior will always vary based on how a vehicle is driven, charged, vehicle age, and other factors, we are working to improve the impact on range for this small group of owners."
So we are seeing some progress here.
As compared to the previous responses from Tesla that there is nothing wrong with my battery, with this recent correspondence Tesla is finally acknowledging that some owners have experienced a range reduction as a result of last month's software update; and they are working on a fix. I let my local Tesla service manager know that I appreciated his escalating this to a department that would responsibly respond, and that for now I will be holding off on filing an NCDS claim in anticipation of the fix arriving in a timely manner.
I did reply to the support team that while this range reduction may not have a noticeable impact on local commute driving, a 30-mile loss on road trips is significant and not viewed by the affected Tesla owners as "a small reduction in range". I will continue to post any correspondence received from Tesla on this issue.
That we can agree 100% on. I would just say theories though, since all theories, for or against, is unproven so far.
You have experience from engineering, some of us have experience with how Tesla has dealt with previous cases, and Tesla's MO, in this case, is matching up 100% at this point to previous cases
The agent is giving you just a different talking point, very similar to what I was told almost a month ago. They have multiple scripts and keep throwing one at the time to see which one sticks.
The agent is still not saying there is anything wrong with your battery. Just a different script used.
Ferrycraigs
Member
Droschke I can understand your nervousness, but I think you may misunderstand how the drop in range has happened. It is purely down to a software change. Reversing that change should be very easy, and very safe.
First thing. The range has NOT disappeared because Tesla have discovered a new way of calculating degradation. Tesla are working on, I think, identifying the amount of Li Plating in a cell. (It’s not the same but think of oxidisation on metal). The battery pack is made up of hundreds of individual cells. Each cell has a nominal value (3.66V) a maximum value (4.2V) and a minimum value. When the cell gets to maximum value, the car says it is 100% full. When it gets to minimum value it says it is 0% or empty. What Tesla appear to have done is change the value when the car thinks a cell is full. I understand the new value is about 4.1V, or thereabouts. (It may be different per car). So now, when your cells get to 4.1V, it says it is 100% full and stops charging. But it is full of cells at 4.1V, not 4.2V. So the overall battery charge is less, so Range is less. It is NOT the case that Tesla have discovered lots of cells with Li Plating and that they are actually more degraded than we thought. They just, artificially, hold less when full.
The safety aspect is really in the future. Li Plating creates the conditions for Dendrite growth (spiky growths inside the battery). If the Dendrites grow too long, they can contact the other Diode, causing a short circuit, and normally a fire. So Tesla appear to be trying to identify Li Plating early, in order to stop, or reduce, Dendrite growth. Good thing to do. Changing your battery capacity back to what it was changes nothing, absolutely nothing, in your battery in regard to current Li Plating or Dendrite growth. If you had it before, you have it now, whether you are at 4.1V or 4.2V. So it may be a safety issue some time in the future, but it’s not one at the moment.
A long post but if you understand how it works it will cause (hopefully) less worry.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Clarification: No misunderstanding here at all. After all, I've spent 47 days on this thread, so far, have meticulously read all 1792 posts, have engaged with others and have learned a lot. I actually see values to the multiple sides presented here. Subtract about 50 from my post count, you get the number of my posts on this thread. I understand how the drop in range has happened.
Specifically, what part of my message gives you the impression I do not understand why the drop in range has happened?
Reading your long reply reminds me of a situation where I wish someone a safe trip and what I hear back is the history of manufacturing planes, which incidentally I know about
Cheers!
Just curious, has anyone experienced a range reduction with the recent software update.
My full charge capacity dropped from 268 down to 228.
I purchased a 2015 Model S 85D with a ‘suggested’ range of 270miles.
Back in 2015-16 I did a lot of long trips down the coast from SF to LA and managed full charging to 268,
When doing regular driving/charging I would do the recommended daily charging,
After the recent update my full charge range DROPPED TO 228. With the 80% charging now being imposed by Tesla at supercharger locations my range is now 200.
I purchased a Model S 85D for the range and now Tesla has reduced my 85 to a 60.
Worse then that they state that this is NORMAL BATTERY DEGRADATION and not covered under the warranty.
MAD AS HELL.
FreddyQ
My full charge capacity dropped from 268 down to 228.
I purchased a 2015 Model S 85D with a ‘suggested’ range of 270miles.
Back in 2015-16 I did a lot of long trips down the coast from SF to LA and managed full charging to 268,
When doing regular driving/charging I would do the recommended daily charging,
After the recent update my full charge range DROPPED TO 228. With the 80% charging now being imposed by Tesla at supercharger locations my range is now 200.
I purchased a Model S 85D for the range and now Tesla has reduced my 85 to a 60.
Worse then that they state that this is NORMAL BATTERY DEGRADATION and not covered under the warranty.
MAD AS HELL.
FreddyQ
Ferrycraigs
Member
OK I was trying to help. I have also read ALL the posts. I took the time, and effort, to explain it in detail as your comment about being nervous about recouping the lost range because you said you were sceptical about a software fix to get the range back, and that you wondered if Tesla had capped the batteries because they were not safe. I thought they were unusual statements to make given the situation. Both are views which I do not share. But I can tell you are very knowledgable about the whole issue. I will have misunderstood your intent. Of all the contributors on here, you are in the top half dozen that the rest of us should listen to. I should take more note of authors!
I apologise if I have been teaching you how to suck eggs. That wasn’t the intention.
Last edited:
GHammer
Dark Star
As many users here are curious about further Tesla actions on this subject, a brief summary of their actions up to now (anagram puzzles seem to be new standard here?):
Action X: Makes battery less prone to fires (from excess delithiation or puncture/deformation), helps to prevent Li-plating and fast cathode degradation.
Disadvantages: For the battery none, but user has less range.
Action Y: Helps to prevent Li-plating.
Disadvantages: For the battery none, but user has to wait longer at SuCs.
Action Z: Prevents Li-plating at higher charging rates.
Disadvantages: Cathode degradation is accelerated, the user sees higher consumption/energy costs
So the riddle: Which of the actions, do you guess, Tesla will take back/lower in the future?
):Action X: Makes battery less prone to fires (from excess delithiation or puncture/deformation), helps to prevent Li-plating and fast cathode degradation.
Disadvantages: For the battery none, but user has less range.
Action Y: Helps to prevent Li-plating.
Disadvantages: For the battery none, but user has to wait longer at SuCs.
Action Z: Prevents Li-plating at higher charging rates.
Disadvantages: Cathode degradation is accelerated, the user sees higher consumption/energy costs
So the riddle: Which of the actions, do you guess, Tesla will take back/lower in the future?
Last edited:
I have gone as well through the whole thread, started when it had 57 pages.
I don't think I have seen any hard evidence supporting the claim that Tesla is out after Li plating or dendrite growth?
For any newcomer to the thread it would be great to stick to the facts and clearly separate that from speculation.
I appreciate tremendously the work done by Jason so far, in this respect.
On a similar note, is there any way to have a short summary of the whole thread easily available from any thread page, so that new comers and (who knows) the media trying to cover the story can easily know how far this crowd-funded investigation has gone?
Similar threads
