Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[Alchemist42]

The main disadvantage of NCA is that it degrades directly to a non-conducting rocksalt layer, while NCM degrades to a conducting spinel first. And on thermal runaway its the first to release oxygen.

View attachment 448519

The advantage is that its cheaper, as long as you can handle its process from base material to cell.

Once your battery reaches 200°C, I suspect you have bigger things to worry about than degradation. Point taken, though, some of the recent fires might not have happened with NMC chemistry. Then again, there was a recent case with a Hyundai Kona EV spontaneously bursting into flames as well.

The problem with the cathode NaCl structure is if course present in NCA, but this is a slow process that can be drawn out over many thousands of cycles, especially when performing shallow cycling. I suspect however that the reason for the whole thread does have relatively little to do with the cathode.

 

[IngTH]

The problem with the cathode NaCl structure is if course present in NCA, but this is a slow process that can be drawn out over many thousands of cycles, especially when performing shallow cycling.

No this happens immediately when i.e. delithiation is > ~ 60%.

 

[NSX1992]

Last Sunday I reported that my new Raven (P100DL) would not charge to 100% but stopped at 98% with a range of 332 miles instead of 345 as I wanted 100% for the dragstrip. Three days ago I uploaded version 2019.32 and I am happy to report 100% and 343 miles. What was different was the time remaining in minutes went down by single digits below 10 minutes, ie 10,9,8,7,etc. Also, the charge rate was good.

On a side note, I made 9 passes in the 1/8th mile drags yesterday with my best time of 6.673 @ 103.22. According to the announcer, the highlight of the meet was when I raced against a new McLaren 720 (720HP) twice and winning (the last race by 0.0723 seconds).

 

[Gixx1300R]

I would be interested in knowing if Tesla has increased the range any 60 or 70s in Florida that has been effected by the sudden range decrease from the download.

 

[Droschke]

I would be interested in knowing if Tesla has increased the range any 60 or 70s in Florida that has been effected by the sudden range decrease from the download.

I was going to recommend looking at columns H and I in the Guillaume's Google Sheet, but has no Florida data.

On Edit: Is this hurricane related?

 

[Gixx1300R]

I was going to recommend looking at columns H and I in the Guillaume's Google Sheet, but has no Florida data.

On Edit: Is this hurricane related?

Yes it is Hurricane related, it would be interesting to see if range and charging speeds are restored for those effected by the Hurricane.

 

[Droschke]

Yes it is Hurricane related, it would be interesting to see if range and charging speeds are restored for those effected by the Hurricane.

I hope they would do it this time as well. Let's see and keep us updated. Stay safe.

 

[Alchemist42]

No this happens immediately when i.e. delithiation is > ~ 60%.

... Which is of course why delithiation is limited to ~55% in all commercial applications.

 

[MP3Mike]

I would be interested in knowing if Tesla has increased the range any 60 or 70s in Florida that has been effected by the sudden range decrease from the download.

Elon said that they would be unlocking the restricted packs and making Supercharging free in the impacted area:

Tesla Owners Online
@Model3Owners
·
Aug 29

@Tesla
@elonmusk
will you be unlocking free Supercharging and extra range for those who need to get to safety because of hurricane Dorian?



Elon Musk
@elonmusk

Replying to @Model3Owners and @Tesla
Yes

Of course that probably just means unlocking 40s to 60s, and 60s to 70s or 75s. (And maybe Model 3 SRs to SR+s.) I would highly doubt they would change the charging curve.

 

[PaulusdB]

Now, almost three months into this issue, I have to share a story with you.

Two befriended cattle farmers, John and Bill, one day decide to walk to the town market together, to sell one of Johns cows. It's a nice day for such a walk, they chat about stuff and are in a generally good mood. Two hours in, everything has been discussed and they silently move along. All that can be heard are the sounds of the the cows hooves and the frogs in the ditches next to the dirt road.
To break the boredom, John has a proposal for Bill. "If you eat one of those frogs alive, my cow is yours to sell at the market." At least that would get some conversation started and surely Bill won't eat a frog, he thinks. But he's mistaken; Bill asks about which size frog to eat and how long he should keep it down. Not wanting to back down, John discusses the exact conditions of the bet. After half an hour of that, John catches a medium size frog and Bill eats it alive.
Again they walk silently on the road, Bill sick to his stomach, but holding the rope to what now is his cow. Although victorious, he imagines what his wife will have to say about this business. How can you cheat your friend out of his hard earned money, what will the neighborhood folks say and how can I ever speak to Johns wife again?
John is also afraid of what his wife will say about losing a whole cow in such a silly bet. No good can come out of this, that's clear.
Another hour goes by, both friends as miserable as they can be, before Bill breaks the silence by making a proposal to John. He'll catch a frog for John to eat too, so he can get his cow back. John is more than happy to agree, as you can guess by now.
With the transaction done, things are restored to how they started out. Although both still pale in the face, they walk along talking like the lifetime friends they are, John holding the rope once again.
After successfully selling the cow, they have a pie and a few cold beers at the market inn and start to walk home. Halfway into the trip, Bill wonders about the days events. "Say, John. I get why we went on this trip, selling your cow, having a daytrip into town, drinking beers and stuff. But tell me, why the hell did we eat those effing frogs?"

So can we please stand united in our misery, instead of feeding each other frogs?

 

[Droschke]

... can we please stand united in our misery, instead of feeding each other frogs?...

Great story and to the point. I would also add the need for the empathy factor to all this back and forth.

Yes, let's just stand united to sell the cows, after all that's why we are here for.

 

[IngTH]

... Which is of course why delithiation is limited to ~55% in all commercial applications.

And how do you measure the amount of delithiation exactly?

 

[MikeyC]

My cow story is similar but has an extra twist. Along the path, John had to take a leak so while he was on the side of the path, Bill was bored and thought it'd be funny to feed John's cow a frog. Now John's cow started walking 10% slower. Didn't seem so bad but when they stopped to feed the cows on their long journey, John's cow wouldn't eat. Eventually it did but it took twice as long to feed the cow. By the time they reached the market, it was closed. They had to return home with both cows. Bill never told John what he did. He figured... what he doesn't know... won't hurt him.

Mike

 

[SmartElectric]

And how do you measure the amount of delithiation exactly?

Put some frogs on the other side of the scale.

 

[Droschke]

My cow story is similar but has an extra twist. Along the path, John had to take a leak so while he was on the side of the path, Bill was bored and thought it'd be funny to feed John's cow a frog. Now John's cow started walking 10% slower. Didn't seem so bad but when they stopped to feed the cows on their long journey, John's cow wouldn't eat. Eventually it did but it took twice as long to feed the cow. By the time they reached the market, it was closed. They had to return home with both cows. Bill never told John what he did. He figured... what he doesn't know... won't hurt him.

Mike

Great witty analogy to the context of this thread and the voltage/capacity cap (sudden imposed -10-12% loss), not being able to make the destination (winter is coming!), slow charging, abysmal lack of communication and transparency, etc. Well put.

 

[jensk2]

I'm interested. Please do. And, don't let the detractors distract you. Even if you say one slightly debatable word in your multiple paragraph of good information they disagree with you. The proof is right there at the bottom of your post and the subsequent nitpick one-liner rebuttal you already have received. Please do not hesitate to give us more info.

If you have read the Keil thesis, he explains and measures the recovery from Anode Overhang.

Recovery at High SoC AND as well at Low SoC is confirmed by this: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352152X18306637
but for prismatic NMC cells. However - the low SoC recovery is assumed to be tied to the Carbon Anode, so should apply to NCA as well.

The test documents a flattening of Differential Voltage Analysis (DVA) graphs, due to very reduced 'homogeneity of lithium distribution' (HDL) after extensive cycling (but at very low DOD) So if ever a car producer were to use DVA, to determine cell (rather anode) capacity, they have a problem with users that cycle all the time and are doing so NOT around medium SoC.

If you look at Fig 6, then after extensive shallow cycling at either high or low average SoC, the DVA have no clear Anode Peak to estimate capacity or HLD from (or it is dead wrong as in the P1~80% Soc graph). Only the small DOD cycling around 42% SoC retains the original peak, all other average SoC needs recovery to re-shape the curve, for any estimation to make any sense.

I would love to see the DVA for a Tesla constanly being SUC cycled and never rested at low SoC

 

[Droschke]

If you have read the Keil thesis, he explains and measures the recovery from Anode Overhang.

Recovery at High SoC AND as well at Low SoC is confirmed by this: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352152X18306637
but for prismatic NMC cells. However - the low SoC recovery is assumed to be tied to the Carbon Anode, so should apply to NCA as well.

The test documents a flattening of Differential Voltage Analysis (DVA) graphs, due to very reduced 'homogeneity of lithium distribution' (HDL) after extensive cycling (but at very low DOD) So if ever a car producer were to use DVA, to determine cell (rather anode) capacity, they have a problem with users that cycle all the time and are doing so NOT around medium SoC.

If you look at Fig 6, then after extensive shallow cycling at either high or low average SoC, the DVA have no clear Anode Peak to estimate capacity or HLD from (or it is dead wrong as in the P1~80% Soc graph). Only the small DOD cycling around 42% SoC retains the original peak, all other average SoC needs recovery to re-shape the curve, for any estimation to make any sense.

I would love to see the DVA for a Tesla constanly being SUC cycled and never rested at low SoC

Thanks for this additional info. The manufacturer's guideline was charge it to 90% and keep it plugged in. That's what I did (so did the most owners and continue to do so). The rest of it, we were told and still being told, is under the razor focus care of the BMS. It now appears that BMS wasn't as caring as it should have been, possibly wearing out (a conservative way to say damaging) our batteries by its negligence in proper care. Once the strategy is to shove as much voltage/current as you can (and as fast as you can) into that pack to claim no competition, that's what you get.

 

[DJRas]

Hilarious. Just writing it doesn't it make it so. Even if you write "Period!" at the end.

The BMS software and all the software changes every few weeks. And Tesla can modify their software as they see fit so long as it doesn't cause a breach of the warranty terms.

And for general competitive reasons they will want to modify the software to maximize owner satisfaction across many dimensions, including increasing MTBF and minimizing risk of incidents that might make their owners have to service their cars. That is just good business sense.

So, when you I paid $10,000 extra for the 85 kWh battery. You contend that it is fine if one week later they change the BMS to limit it to a 70 kWh pack.
That does not violate the 8 year unlimited mileage warranty.

 

[bhzmark]

So, when you I paid $10,000 extra for the 85 kWh battery. You contend that it is fine if one week later they change the BMS to limit it to a 70 kWh pack.
That does not violate the 8 year unlimited mileage warranty.

All packs degrade, including the 70 which wouldn't perform like a brand new 70 anymore either. And the BMS should address that as best it can.

 

[Evoforce]

All packs degrade, including the 70 which wouldn't perform like a brand new 70 anymore either. And the BMS should address that as best it can.

For what seems to be the millionth time.. This is a software limiting/capping of battery capacity. If very few cars (as what Tesla has said to the media) are affected, then replace these (supposed low in number) outliers. Nissan tried this "normal degradation" crap and rightfully got sued and lost. This thread is about the capping of said Tesla batteries and not about the deemed normal degradation of the rest the cars they manufactured.