Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[Krash]

I wonder if it is possible that the limiting of the battery vMax and the charge taper are being calculated by battery history rather than battery parameters?

If by history, a poor software implementation might not recognize the battery replacement and would apply old battery history limiting to the new battery.

It seems unlikely that there is some sort of cloud implementation whereby battery history is stored at Tesla by one car and then downloaded when a battery is replaced and also somehow purged when a pack is refurbished.

Let's hope it is by parameters and that a battery swap triggers a remeasuring of them.

 

[Jcarlson]

There must be a secondary system that regulated charge rate and it has higher priority. For example I see 90 kW as the max value, I plug in at a supercharger and only see 40 kW (unpaired stall). After about 30-60 seconds the max charge value 'catches up' and goes down to 40 kW as well.
The same is true for the max discharge rate and max regen rate. The values on the CAN bus are one thing, but the car often limits these values different. For example when the battery is cold, the max regen you get driving is very close to what the CAN bis says. When the regen is limited by the state of charge (let's say it's at 95%) the CAN bis might say you have 40 kW max regen but the car will only do about half of that. I'm not sure what to make of that. Why is there a value set but then the car does something else?

I have noticed the same thing the other way around. When starting supercharging I see the BMS max charge being (for example) around 80-90kW, but the actual charge speed peaks at 118kW and then after some minutes catches up with the CAN bus value. For the rest of the session the actual speed seems to correspond to the CAN value. So there is additional logic that is being applied, either simply in the charge rate PID control loop or otherwise.

My car (120kkm 8/2015 S85D) is voltage capped to 4.12V and also charge limited, though not as badly as many others. My average supercharging rate is around 60kW over a typical 15-80% session and always peaks 118kW if the battery is warm. The lifetime totals are ca. 12000kW DC and 18000kW AC charging with the current driving profile maybe 60% supercharging and 40% slow 2kW AC charging.
Except for the voltage cap the battery seems to have little degradation, with nominal capacity at 74.5kWh and usable capacity at 70.5kWh.

 

[T.R.T.e.s.l.a.]

I
Except for the voltage cap the battery seems to have little degradation, with nominal capacity at 74.5kWh and usable capacity at 70.5kWh.

And what's, currently, your typical range at 100%, 90% and 80%?
And what were those when new?
I have about the same nominal capacity on my late 2014 S85.

 

[Jcarlson]

And what's, currently, your typical range at 100%, 90% and 80%?
And what were those when new?
I have about the same nominal capacity on my late 2014 S85.

I always use the energy display so can't say right now about the others, but according to CAN bus my full rated range is 501km and full typical range is 401km. The original rated range (NEDC) was 528km so it doesn't seem like the Vmax capping is reflected in these values.

 

[T.R.T.e.s.l.a.]

I always use the energy display so can't say right now about the others, but according to CAN bus my full rated range is 501km and full typical range is 401km. The original rated range (NEDC) was 528km so it doesn't seem like the Vmax capping is reflected in these values.

Thank you.
CAN tells me i have 370km of full typical range.

 

[boywonder]

Hmm ok that update is waiting for install. I may just wait a little longer. I am scared by battery will give me that failed message and Tesla will somehow give me a crappy battery replacement like I'm hearing they did it to someone already.

The cynic in wonders if Tesla’s thinking goes like this... “let’s give shitty batteries as warranty replacements until word gets out and then no one else will ask for replacements any more”

Nice move Tesla

 

[omarsultan]

The loss we talking about here on this thread is NOT DEGRADATION that YOU EXPECT AFTER FEW YEARS OF USAGE. it is something resulting from selling defective merchandise. The car is NO LONGER FITS WHAT YOU OR ME BARGAINED FOR.

I dont see how can anyone be happy with that!!

I was initially responding to you post:

That simply means that tesla replacing batteries is just a gimmic . And by far not a warranty satisfaction. Is just mud in the eyes to keep your car drivable, even just like nothing you bargained for.

If Tesla replaces my pack and gets me back to pre-16.x range and reasonable SC rates, I would not consider that in accordance with the wording of the warranty and not a gimmick. If I am lucky enough to score one of the new pack designs, so much the better.

 

[Keshk]

I was initially responding to you post:



If Tesla replaces my pack and gets me back to pre-16.x range and reasonable SC rates, I would not consider that in accordance with the wording of the warranty and not a gimmick. If I am lucky enough to score one of the new pack designs, so much the better.

The real question Sir is : what if they gave you a replacement battery that is close to capacity but with charge time awful like 70 to 100% longer than what you were getting before the sudden loss.

 

[omarsultan]

The real question Sir is : what if they gave you a replacement battery that is close to capacity but with charge time awful like 70 to 100% longer than what you were getting before the sudden loss.

Fair question--I don't have an answer. My assumption to date is that the same underlying root cause is behind both SC throttling and capping, so addressing one would also address the other.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

It sounded to me that many people here think that if Tesla replaced your battery with a new or refurbished one, you will automatically gain back your supercharging speed. That is questionable. I, for one, will not consider slower charging as acceptable under any circumstances

I think it’s unlikely that a refurbished battery would suffer from reduced charge speeds. As far as I can tell only some cars suffer from this, and it is believed the trigger is in some way related to the amount of previous Supercharging. A replacement battery should not have any Supercharging history so I can’t see any reason why they would limit the charge speed.

 

[Chaserr]

The MCU is what tracks supercharging in its logs. maybe Tesla is capping replacements because they don't clear the logs that are used to trigger an "ill" battery making the car a "carrier" of batterygate infections to any battery installed.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

No Sir. Wrong. You might be happy that you getting miles back, but that is not the car you bargained and paid for. With this slow charge it is impractical to use the car for what I paid for. As a matter of fact, I would say if anyone uses the car for out of town trips (i assume majority do) , charge time is more significant than 10% miles.

On balance (I have both batterygate and chargegate) I thought chargegate would be more of an inconvenience. Actually it’s not, primarily because I don’t make that many long journeys requiring supercharger hops. So day to day it is less of a problem than I expected, particularly as I am able to top up overnight. Just proves everyone’s circumstances are different. For Keshk its more important, for me less so.

I think the range issue is a stronger point to debate. It was clear that a car with a larger battery would be more expensive but give greater range. Sadly I don’t remember them citing specific charge speeds. There was the usual 'up to 120 kWs caveats (I have never pulled more than 103 kWs in 4 years), and some vague x% in y minutes type thing. Because of the lack of specific figures or promises I would think this was an argument Tesla are less likely to lose than the Capacity capping issue.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

The MCU is what tracks supercharging in its logs. maybe Tesla is capping replacements because they don't clear the logs that are used to trigger an "ill" battery making the car a "carrier" of batterygate infections to any battery installed.

It would be interesting to see what TMSpy or ScanMyTesla shows on a replacement pack. It would certainly be unacceptable if Replacement batteries were tarred by the Charging history of the previous one.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

I always use the energy display so can't say right now about the others, but according to CAN bus my full rated range is 501km and full typical range is 401km. The original rated range (NEDC) was 528km so it doesn't seem like the Vmax capping is reflected in these values.

It is important not to mix consumption estimate methods. Rated Range and NEDC for instance use different formulae. But in your example if the Rated Range New was 528km and now it is 501km, surely that is evidence the Rated Range has been affected?

 

[Jcarlson]

It is important not to mix consumption estimate methods. Rated Range and NEDC for instance use different formulae. But in your example if the Rated Range New was 528km and now it is 501km, surely that is evidence the Rated Range has been affected?

I have been under the assumption that "rated range" in european cars refers to the NEDC number, which is 528km for a S85D. The "typical range" number, which is lower, is somewhat closer to reality but still very optimistic for highway driving (the lifetime consumption of my car is around 230Wh/km). I'm not sure what test cycle the EU "typical" value is based on, EPA converted to km?

It seems to me that the current rated range is only affected by normal Ah degradation and still displays the now unattainable 4,2V/100% range due to voltage capping. In this case, a 5% reduction in rated range is not sufficient to explain the full reduction of battery capacity in kWh.

 

[mjmiron]

Fair question--I don't have an answer. My assumption to date is that the same underlying root cause is behind both SC throttling and capping, so addressing one would also address the other.

I have posted on here before that my battery was replace due to chargegate and batterygate and that i had recently purchased the car in April of 2019 (15 85D iwth about 45K miles) and was affected in June 2019. I can safely say that my 85 battery was replaced with a 90 and range with the new battery is 275 roughly at 100% and charging is back to normal.

 

[David99]

I have posted on here before that my battery was replace due to chargegate and batterygate and that i had recently purchased the car in April of 2019 (15 85D iwth about 45K miles) and was affected in June 2019. I can safely say that my 85 battery was replaced with a 90 and range with the new battery is 275 roughly at 100% and charging is back to normal.

Can you link to your post? So they replaced your battery because it was voltage capped and supercharging was slow? Or was there any additional reasons? Because I'm heavily affected by both and Tesla told my battery is just fine.

 

[David99]

Recently I got an error message at Superchargers 'Unable to DC fast charge'. It happened at different locations and sometimes when I plug in and sometimes in the middle of a charge session. It happened too many times recently to be random. Anyone else getting this message?

 

[sixela]

I have been under the assumption that "rated range" in european cars refers to the NEDC number,

Not anymore -- now manufacturers must use the WLTP number.

 

[Matias]

It would be interesting to see what TMSpy or ScanMyTesla shows on a replacement pack. It would certainly be unacceptable if Replacement batteries were tarred by the Charging history of the previous one.

Wasn’t there that kind of case in this thread? Replacement battery was also limited until Tesla cleared the logs...

Not necessarily charging history per se, but “ill status”.