Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[Battpower]

I kind of feel like recycling the raw materials is a dead end, unless some time in the future the raw material costs skyrocket.

Sadly, you are probably correct, but I find that a very unsatisfactory state of affairs and one that we SHOULD care about early on in a process / cycle rather than later on.

It is imo far too easy to value mineral / metal commodities based on extraction and refining cost rather than a broader end to end energy / environmental cost and utility value.

 

[Battpower]

I usually give the same answer: "You don't replace it. It will effectively last forever, it just won't be as useful 10 years from now as it was on day 1." And for the most part, with some exceptions of course, this is true. The battery in almost every Tesla vehicle is likely to outlive the rest of the car.

My 1994 Toyota RAV4 still runs as good as new. It has outlasted and outperformed two newer RAV's.
My 1991 Lotus Elan is also just as good if not better than new.

These are the two success stories of my car ownership and both bring pleasure and do their job.

I am hoping that my Model S will still be viable well beyond 10 years, along with all the other older cars out there. If the EV base platform really can outlast ICE vehicles (due to all those 'missing' moving parts) then the car itself (ie excluding battery) must surely be good for 20 - 30 years if looked after... or longer. So imo battery replacement options are essential, even if just for peace of mind.

I do have a concern that the EV model could be fundamentally flawed due to eventual demise of batteries. ICE cars still serve a purpose of providing perfectly viable transport well beyond warranty expiration. The picture really changes if the battery life actually dictates the life of the vehicle, and every vehicle must be scrapped at the point the battery becomes too low performing.

And there would be no (or at least less) point breaking cars for parts either if there are no batteries to keep older cars on the road.

In order for Tesla's 'sustainability' credentials to stand, they at least need VERY long life batteries, and I believe, a replacement / upgrade program too.

 

[Chaserr]

So imo battery replacement options are essential, even if just for peace of mind.

Agreed. Battery replacement options are vital to the goal of "accelerating the world's transition to sustainable transportation" - especially for cars that are not capable of functioning within delivered warranty and safety specifications through to the end of their original factory warranty period. If there was a simple solution to Tesla's batterygate problem it would have been over long ago. Since it's still ongoing, we know the solution isn't simple, and while some of tesla's apologists might insist on throwing away cars and getting new ones constantly this attitude of disposability runs counter to Tesla's entire Mission. JB Straubel was still promising Tesla would recycle batteries when he stepped down and his new venture appears to be moving in that direction still. Here's to the hope Tesla hasn't given up on the goal of sustainability.

 

[qwk]

When people who are new to EVs/Tesla/etc inevitably ask me about the "what about when you need to replace the battery" or "how long will the battery last" type questions, I usually give the same answer: "You don't replace it. It will effectively last forever, it just won't be as useful 10 years from now as it was on day 1." And for the most part, with some exceptions of course, this is true. The battery in almost every Tesla vehicle is likely to outlive the rest of the car. It effectively has only 3 mechanical components (two contactors and a precharge relay), all of which have very high MTBF on the order of decades. There's not much to go wrong with them outside of normal degradation.

I actually have a customer with a signature Model S (VIN under 100) with almost 400,000 miles on his original battery... and his car still charges to about 230 rated miles at 100%. That's something like only 13% degradation in almost 8 years and over 4x average mileage per year. Even if this rate were normal degradation, < 2% range loss per year is pretty acceptable. Would mean most cars wouldn't hit the new 70% warranty replacement threshold for over 15 years.

I kind of feel like recycling the raw materials is a dead end, unless some time in the future the raw material costs skyrocket.

A better recycling method in the near term seems to be use in stationary storage applications after useful life in an EV is over, where energy density generally isn't the top project requirement. An EV battery at 70% original capacity, with probably another 10 years of life before hitting 50% capacity, is likely to be pretty valuable still. Since it's secondhand, the price per kWh would be lower also.

Or, even using degraded batteries to power lower cost lower range EVs might even be an option. Maybe future short range Model 3's will just have older long range Model 3 packs, for example. Would make a lot of sense.

When people who are new to EVs/Tesla/etc inevitably ask me about the "what about when you need to replace the battery" or "how long will the battery last" type questions, I usually give the same answer: "You don't replace it. It will effectively last forever, it just won't be as useful 10 years from now as it was on day 1." And for the most part, with some exceptions of course, this is true. The battery in almost every Tesla vehicle is likely to outlive the rest of the car. It effectively has only 3 mechanical components (two contactors and a precharge relay), all of which have very high MTBF on the order of decades. There's not much to go wrong with them outside of

I actually have a customer with a signature Model S (VIN under 100) with almost 400,000 miles on his original battery... and his car still charges to about 230 rated miles at 100%. That's something like only 13% degradation in almost 8 years and over 4x average mileage per year. Even if this rate were normal degradation, < 2% range loss per year is pretty acceptable. Would mean most cars wouldn't hit the new 70% warranty replacement threshold for over 15 years.

I kind of feel like recycling the raw materials is a dead end, unless some time in the future the raw material costs skyrocket.

A better recycling method in the near term seems to be use in stationary storage applications after useful life in an EV is over, where energy density generally isn't the top project requirement. An EV battery at 70% original capacity, with probably another 10 years of life before hitting 50% capacity, is likely to be pretty valuable still. Since it's secondhand, the price per kWh would be lower also.

Or, even using degraded batteries to power lower cost lower range EVs might even be an option. Maybe future short range Model 3's will just have older long range Model 3 packs, for example. Would make a lot of sense.

A Sig Model S with 400k miles and original Tyco contactors? That has to be a world record.

 

[JRP3]

I kind of feel like recycling the raw materials is a dead end, unless some time in the future the raw material costs skyrocket.

Don't tell JB that, since he left Tesla to pursue battery recycling. Seems to me a battery pack is a box of already mined and purified components delivered to your door, separating the more valuable parts even if small portions of less valuable materials are lost should be viable. Landfilling them has a cost as well, plus the bad optics.

A better recycling method in the near term seems to be use in stationary storage applications after useful life in an EV is over, where energy density generally isn't the top project requirement. An EV battery at 70% original capacity, with probably another 10 years of life before hitting 50% capacity, is likely to be pretty valuable still. Since it's secondhand, the price per kWh would be lower also.

Absolutely, re-use before recycle, it's already happening, as you know.

Or, even using degraded batteries to power lower cost lower range EVs might even be an option. Maybe future short range Model 3's will just have older long range Model 3 packs, for example. Would make a lot of sense.

I can see that in the conversion market or aftermarket replacements, I can't see Tesla bothering with putting old packs into new vehicles.

 

[Sup3rt3sla]

I can see that in the conversion market or aftermarket replacements, I can't see Tesla bothering with putting old packs into new vehicles.

Indeed. Personally, I'm not jumping onto this "accelerating the world's transition to sustainable energy" bandwagon. IMO it's above all marketing and clickbait. In order to believe in it, Tesla must accept that we (aftermarket/3rd parties included) have the right to repair our own cars without loosing SuC or other fast charging capabilities. They have means to diagnose any repairs/modifications to the cars.

 

[wk057]

A Sig Model S with 400k miles and original Tyco contactors? That has to be a world record.

Battery is original. Didn't say anything about the contactors, although I don't actually know if he ever actually got the replacements when they started doing that. Will have to check. I know for sure it's the original battery pack though, with original modules, even if they at some point updated the contactors. I know Tesla's replaced a huge percentage of the old Tyco contactors, but there are still quite a few vehicles out there with them. It all depends on driving style, really. If you never push more than a couple hundred amps, the Tyco ones should last quite a while. If you nail it often, then you likely would've ended up higher up on Tesla's list of people who need those replaced. They're actually still doing proactive contactor swaps of Tyco to Gigavac to this day, as needed based on the vehicle's performance and usage metrics. (Since I'm sure someone will try and spin it, there's no recall needed, since it's not a safety issue. The worst that happens is the contactors fry and the car won't work anymore. I've pushed them to this limit personally in testing. )

Don't tell JB that, since he left Tesla to pursue battery recycling. Seems to me a battery pack is a box of already mined and purified components delivered to your door, separating the more valuable parts even if small portions of less valuable materials are lost should be viable. Landfilling them has a cost as well, plus the bad optics.

I just don't see how it could possibly compete on cost vs mining, at least no where in the near future. I could possibly see this being a thing sometime towards the end of my lifetime, but seems pretty unlikely to be viable any time soon.

To clarify, there are definitely recycling possibilities right now for things like the battery pack casing and other components, but I'm mainly refering to the cells/modules being impractical to recycle for raw materials.

Now it _may_ make sense to stockpile batteries that have completely ended their life (after EV use, stationary use, etc are no longer viable)... kind of as an investment in the above noted future recycling options... but right now any raw material recycling of the cells would be for PR and has no hope of being cost effective.

I can't see Tesla bothering with putting old packs into new vehicles.

I can definitely see them doing it eventually, if the legal side of things on that can be overcome (selling a new car with a used component seems like a no-no, but I'm not sure there's anything that specifically prohibits it, especially if they provide the same warranty.... seems no different to me than say, a battery failure on the first day of ownership resulting in a refurbished replacement pack install with greater or equal capacity).

I mean, in all seriousness, why do you think Tesla is getting into the insurance business?

 

[wk057]

Indeed. Personally, I'm not jumping onto this "accelerating the world's transition to sustainable energy" bandwagon. IMO it's above all marketing and clickbait. In order to believe in it, Tesla must accept that we (aftermarket/3rd parties included) have the right to repair our own cars without loosing SuC or other fast charging capabilities. They have means to diagnose any repairs/modifications to the cars.

Bluntly, the "vision" is total BS outside of the wishful thinking of Musk and a few others, really. (As far as people high up at Tesla, I mean, not the public or lower tier folks.) I do truly think that Musk himself believes in the vision of "accelerating the world's transition to sustainable energy" ... but Tesla the company definitely and provably does not operate with that as its goal... hence why we can't work on our cars, for example. Or why salvage cars can't supercharge. If the company operated with "the vision" as its underlying principle, these things would not be issues as they clearly and indisputably work towards the goal of that vision.

At the end of the day, Tesla the company operates to make money. I think people miss this important fact sometimes.

 

[islandbayy]

A Sig Model S with 400k miles and original Tyco contactors? That has to be a world record.

Not necessarily the original contractors. If the contractors failed in the early days battery would be swapped as they were still trying to work out a permanent fix or the contantor problem.
Around end of 2014 early 2015, you could bring your vehicle in for service and they could swap out just the contactor right at a service center.

 

[JRP3]

I just don't see how it could possibly compete on cost vs mining, at least no where in the near future. I could possibly see this being a thing sometime towards the end of my lifetime, but seems pretty unlikely to be viable any time soon.

To clarify, there are definitely recycling possibilities right now for things like the battery pack casing and other components, but I'm mainly refering to the cells/modules being impractical to recycle for raw materials.

You do know there are companies which have already been recycling lithium cells for years, right? https://www.retrievtech.com (formerly Toxco), Umicore and Battery Solutions | Recycle any Battery. Anywhere in North America. to name a few.

 

[JRP3]

Indeed. Personally, I'm not jumping onto this "accelerating the world's transition to sustainable energy" bandwagon. IMO it's above all marketing and clickbait. In order to believe in it, Tesla must accept that we (aftermarket/3rd parties included) have the right to repair our own cars without loosing SuC or other fast charging capabilities. They have means to diagnose any repairs/modifications to the cars.

Few people actually care about working on or modifying their own cars. Just because we don't like Tesla's policy about DIY repairs doesn't really change the true impact they are having on the move to sustainable energy use. Marketing hype or not they are accelerating the switch to EV adoption and grid storage, forcing other companies to try and catch up.

 

[wk057]

You do know there are companies which have already been recycling lithium cells for years, right? https://www.retrievtech.com (formerly Toxco), Umicore and Battery Solutions | Recycle any Battery. Anywhere in North America. to name a few.

Hey, I could be wrong. It's happened once or twice before in my life!

I'd be curious as to if any of these companies actually make any money recycling large lithium ion batteries for raw materials, though. Recycling older battery tech (lead acid, alkaline, NiCad, etc) is pretty straightforward and has been done for decades.

Lithium stuff is a whole different ball game. You can't just run them through a crusher like you can with others.

 

[wk057]

Few people actually care about working on or modifying their own cars.

I think the issue is more than DIY. Right now, no one but Tesla is "allowed" to work on the cars, even local mechanics and such.

And then if you do need collision repairs beyond what an insurance company would say is a total loss, even if you do get your car repaired by Tesla and/or Tesla authorized facilities, you can never again have access to features that came with the vehicle (supercharging and connectivity).

My yellow S was in an accident last year that totaled out the car based on the expense to repair the rear quarter panel, mainly. The car still drove fine, no errors, no airbags, etc. But, according to Tesla that car may never supercharge ever again. Like really? Wtf is that BS.

 

[JRP3]

I thought I saw that salvaged 3's don't have SC access shut off for some reason.

 

[AustinP]

@wk057 crazy accident, looks like no one got hurt. Hope you got hold of the other guy/gal and at least that worked out.

I can understand not allowing third party repair is upsetting, particularly the SuC access denial.

Yet, for the time being, and probably for still some more years, any Tesla related event (accident, fire, panel gap...) is so hyped by the media.
I imagine Tesla don't want to increase the risk of more bad press by cars modified outside of their control.
Proving a few weeks later it happened because of a third party will not have any echo in the media, as such reporting is not what the media likes to report anyway.

 

[wk057]

I thought I saw that salvaged 3's don't have SC access shut off for some reason.

From what I can tell this is only because Tesla is behind on implementing the unsupported vehicles backend stuff to handle Model 3. The documentation involved when dealing with Tesla, which applies to all vehicles, explicitly states that supercharging will be disabled and there is no way to re-enabled it.

So anyone with a salvage 3 that's been repaired is likely in for a rude awakening eventually.

@wk057 crazy accident, looks like no one got hurt. Hope you got hold of the other guy/gal and at least that worked out.

I can understand not allowing third party repair is upsetting, particularly the SuC access denial.

Yet, for the time being, and probably for still some more years, any Tesla related event (accident, fire, panel gap...) is so hyped by the media.
I imagine Tesla don't want to increase the risk of more bad press by cars modified outside of their control.
Proving a few weeks later it happened because of a third party will not have any echo in the media, as such reporting is not what the media likes to report anyway.

I do understand some of the thinking behind why they do this... but at the same time, that's just an excuse. Stuff is going to happen in the media regardless of repaired salvage vehicles. The lack of supercharging and ability to repair is purely to discourage people from purchasing and/or repairing salvage vehicles by making them have less value and appeal... which pushes people who are in total loss situations towards buying a new Tesla instead, most likely.

 

[BPeter]

I thought I saw that salvaged 3's don't have SC access shut off for some reason.

From what I can tell this is only because Tesla is behind on implementing the unsupported vehicles backend stuff to handle Model 3. The documentation involved when dealing with Tesla, which applies to all vehicles, explicitly states that supercharging will be disabled and there is no way to re-enabled it.

So anyone with a salvage 3 that's been repaired is likely in for a rude awakening eventually.



I do understand some of the thinking behind why they do this... but at the same time, that's just an excuse. Stuff is going to happen in the media regardless of repaired salvage vehicles. The lack of supercharging and ability to repair is purely to discourage people from purchasing and/or repairing salvage vehicles by making them have less value and appeal... which pushes people who are in total loss situations towards buying a new Tesla instead, most likely.

There is actually someone in my local FB group with a salvage Model 3 who just had their supercharging disabled. They confirmed with Tesla phone support that it was disabled because it has a salvage title.

 

[gmo43]

Back to the topic at hand people.

 

[wk057]

Back to the topic at hand people.

This thread flew off the planet and left the rails at escape velocity towards the abyss long ago with insufficient delta-V to return.

---

Edit: Also, I love how my posts are generally well received... like, there's one a couple pages back with dozens of positive ratings... and two dislikes from the same people as always haha. With a couple of the FUDsters having me on ignore now (supposedly), there's only two that consistently flag my posts "Disagree", and only one that does it without even pretending to care about the content (at least the other pretends to read and doesn't thumbs down some posts lol).

If you "Disagree" with my posts without explanation, I'm going to just do the same at least 2x. Like, literally three people in this thread account for about 80% of all of the "Disagree" ratings I've ever gotten out of thousands of posts. Should say something about the SNR around here.

I'd kindly ask the reasonable folks around here to rate all posts here appropriately, and if you have a problem with something say why. Should help weed out the wheat from the chaff a bit at a glance.

 

[T.R.T.e.s.l.a.]

That's something you and some others are really trying to do.

I like it when every time i say something against you, lots of minions rush out and disagree.
It's like a sport