Supercharging option pricing/60 kWh pack fee discussion

[v12 to 12v]

I have a Sig on order. Even with a Sig I never would have imagined that access to the supercharger network would be free. Nor did I expect free power.
Sure, I anticipated the ability to use the network but I ultimately expected it to become a way for Tesla to create a continuous revenue stream and a means to continue building the infrastructure.

Getting the option to access a nationwide network with some serious infrastructure for $1000 to $2000 sounded spectacular and generous to me. It increases the value of the car tremendously by enhancing its usability and flexibility beyond anything previously imagined.

At the same, time I would want the option to re-configure my vehicle post-announcement without any disruption of the delivery queue if I ordered the 60kWh. I'm not intending to dismiss anyone's concerns or angst. I'm just offering up a different perspective and sharing my own reaction to the announcements.

 

[heems]

I would still argue it's a bait and switch because the prices are changing retro-actively. Here is how I would have done it different: Since decision was made to say "included" (without splitting hairs) back in July, then in the 9/24 SC event announce the final details and raise prices in the future. Announce SC was included for 60k but as of Oct 1, 2012 it will be $2000. I think people will swallow a future price increase much better than one retro-actively. This way Tesla would honor their prior commitment while at the same time show they have their act together (i.e. must make money).

Ps: I read in earlier posts people justifying the SC as always being only hardware, or not including access, or missing software activation, etc. Well the MVPA does not explicitly state access to the 17'' display software. Sure the car has the hardware and software, but nowhere does it explicitly say its activated. OMG! I hope one day Tesla charges all those people who have locked in their MVPA an access fee to the 17'' display software. Only then you'll understand the nature of what Tesla is doing with its SC feature.

 

[kevincwelch]

Ps: I read in earlier posts people justifying the SC as always being only hardware, or not including access, or missing software activation, etc. Well the MVPA does not explicitly state access to the 17'' display software. Sure the car has the hardware and software, but nowhere does it explicitly say its activated. OMG! I hope one day Tesla charges all those people who have locked in their MVPA an access fee to the 17'' display software. Only then you'll understand the nature of what Tesla is doing with its SC feature.

Reminds me about the line in A Few Good Men about the mess hall not being in the Marine Corps manual.

Although it was never explicitly stated, there was an awful lot of implication that SC access would be there for 60 kWh owners when the website started showing that the hardware and software was included.

As I look at each fee Tesla has levied on buyers, no single one seems to be a burden. However, add them up, and it's substantial. Considering many fees were added after people locked in makes me view Tesla as bordering shady.

On the other hand, maybe this is all a marketing ploy. I have started considering the 85 kWh version over the last couple of days. Good job, Tesla! (Start hearing about more fees and glitches in the car, I'll be getting the 0 kWh version.)

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Paying up front for the software is easily explained.....Tesla needs the money.....

Right. I don't buy the 'calibration' stuff at all. What happens when you do a battery swap?

I don't profess to know much about calibration and how this plays a role. Maybe they really do need to do it at the time of installation. I suspect, however, given that it is software, this could be done later in the game. Here's where we try to find out from Founders or early Sig owners if all this was already included and "calibrated" before delivery or if they have to go back to get the software installed. If the latter, shame on Tesla. If Founders need to go back to get hardware installed, well, shame on Tesla for suggesting otherwise.

 

[ahimberg]

Tesla also really needs to answer the question of if CHAdeMO or SAE J1772 DC adapters will be made available for the car. (and if they will require supercharger hardware, or some different option). If we knew today that one of those adapters was coming and its price, the SC question for many 60s would be easily answered.

I don't need nationwide SC access, but access to some DC would be nice for a longer trip where you have the range to get somewhere, but not to get back. If I'm stuck on a standard outlet waiting 50+ hours to charge (+more if there a GFI faults), vs stopping for a couple hours at a DC station is better...

For those that do try nationwide on a 60 battery, the other concern I have is when the 60 battery ages, not being able to make it all the way between SC spots, being able to stop for 30 minutes at a different DC stop would make that possible for less money but a bit more time without going up to the 85 battery.

 

[Babylonfive]

For those who have ordered 60kwh model, its not about how much it is, but that we werent told before we signed. my contract says that its free, and for those that signed the mvna before the clarification it should be free.

 

[ModelS1079]

and this is the kind of stuff you will see (including the actual vehicle problems we are starting to see).

AV99, can you take a moment to clarify what problems you mean? Wondering what issues have come up - thanks.

 

[Beavis]

I would still argue it's a bait and switch because the prices are changing retro-actively. Here is how I would have done it different: Since decision was made to say "included" (without splitting hairs) back in July, then in the 9/24 SC event announce the final details and raise prices in the future. Announce SC was included for 60k but as of Oct 1, 2012 it will be $2000. I think people will swallow a future price increase much better than one retro-actively. This way Tesla would honor their prior commitment while at the same time show they have their act together (i.e. must make money).

Ps: I read in earlier posts people justifying the SC as always being only hardware, or not including access, or missing software activation, etc. Well the MVPA does not explicitly state access to the 17'' display software. Sure the car has the hardware and software, but nowhere does it explicitly say its activated. OMG! I hope one day Tesla charges all those people who have locked in their MVPA an access fee to the 17'' display software. Only then you'll understand the nature of what Tesla is doing with its SC feature.

I hear what you're saying, just disagree with the perspective that they changed the price of the car because Tesla never said access was free. Whether they enable access and charge a per use fee or require an up front payment for unlimited access and how much those fees are was always the question. The price for the car didn't change, the amount charged for access was finally announced. Obviously, some people think it's too much and everyone has their opinion based on their personal circumstances.
I just think they should let owners enable access at a later date because a lot can change in 2-5 years. People move, sell cars, SC locations are announced, etc....

 

[kevincwelch]

Tesla also really needs to answer the question of if CHAdeMO or SAE J1772 DC adapters will be made available for the car.

Correct me if I am wrong, but would CHAdeMO more or less compete with the Tesla Supercharger? Methinks the Tesla one would have more capacity given the announcement, and even though the Tesla charger might be faster, one could conceive of foregoing the Tesla SC fee and using CHAdeMO instead, albeit at a slower rate.

 

[ModelS1079]

Have a great weekend!
GeorgeB

Can someone please upgrade George from Junior Member?

Wayne Gretsky as Water-boy?
Keith Richards as Roadie?
Steve Jobs at the Genius Bar?
Tom Hanks as Understudy?

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I also talked to a Tesla rep last night while i was mulling over my options (and the wife mentioned upgrading to the 85 as something we should think about this morning, which hadn't been considering).

Still mulling over the decision.....

Are you kidding me? And you are still mulling it over? Less Mulling and make the call before the refrigerator breaks. You married well, Tempus.


I upgraded to the 85. Heck, suddenly it only costs $9K more :wink:
Less for me as I will also drop the twin charger (can install this later if "needed"), HPWC, and cost of 100Amp line installation. The 85 will cost me about 5K more with these changes.

 

[teslasguy]

The biggest run I see here is the fact that Tesla has been saying that supercharging capability would be included with 65 and 75 kw versions, and now telling the 65kw reservation holders that they have 10 days to agree to an extra $1k charge or they lose the ability to supercharge forever cannot be added later. If I have this straight then this seems to be very wrong.


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[teslasguy]

"Run" should be "rub". And 75 kw should be 85kw. All thumbs on my phone today!


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[ModelS1079]

For those who have ordered 60kwh model, its not about how much it is, but that we weren't told before we signed. my contract says that its free, and for those that signed the mvna before the clarification it should be free.

Some points. Feedback welcome but the last point feels just right:

1. I posted in August (think it was my first post, actually) that I spoke w Tesla and they clearly noted there would be an activation fee for the 60kWh. Tesla would have done better to note the activation fee was still TBD. That is too bad, but:

2. I felt the same when I received my email last night, but after reflecting, I have come to feel it is abundantly fair that an activation fee is required for Supercharge use. I never imagined it would be free - I figured (and from the forum notes from just ten days ago - we all figured) there would EITHER be an upfront one time fee or site-of-use charges. I can't find a post where it is stated one of us expected Tesla to just set up a nationwide network of dedicated DC chargers and just...give it away free, forever.

3. But they did. You can buy an 85 or activate your 60 - your choice, reduced cost, in fact - and then it is free. For life. Transferable. Follows with you on your next battery. Cross country. Pack a cooler, tell your college friends you are coming, and leave our wallet at home. But bring your license because this is one fast car.

4. Finally, consider this, please - really imagine for a moment our reaction if Tesla had announced what we may have expected - that Supercharging is available to all 85 and 60kWh battery owners for a one-time, up front fee of $1000 - for all owners (85 and 60). We would now be discussing (you geeks would be calculating for us semi-morons) whether it is WORTH the fee, not whether the fee is FAIR. I have found from reviewing this thread, and my own postings (which I know earlier contradicted what I now believe), that it is the fee being exclusively for 60kWh owners that is boiling the blood. With no fee at the charging site [free. for life.] we simply can have no axe to grind.

Yes it costs more to Supercharge, but it is then Free. Nowhere did we expect that the Ultimate Juice Bar would be [free for life.]. College friends this is your alert: We're heading your way.

 

[PRJIM]

The biggest run I see here is the fact that Tesla has been saying that supercharging capability would be included with 65 and 75 kw versions, and now telling the 65kw reservation holders that they have 10 days to agree to an extra $1k charge or they lose the ability to supercharge forever cannot be added later. If I have this straight then this seems to be very wrong.


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The part about not being able to upgrade the software/access once the car is built seems to be a marketing ploy by Tesla. For a car built around software, something does not smell right. Tesla is giving some customers 10 days to decide if they want this option; eerily similar to a high pressure sales model used by franchised car dealerships?

I would be curious to see the legalese for the "lifetime access" to superchargers. I am sure there will be some restrictions that may exclude certain vehicles from utilizing Superchargers (i.e. salvage, non-tesla maintained etc). Does anyone have this document?

 

[Mike_Schlechter]

I'm a pretty big fan of Tesla, and generally accepting of the little bumps in the process as part of being an early adopter. Also, I'm getting the 85kWh battery, so am not personally affected here.

That said, this sucks. I get that they weren't ready to announce in July, and had to make a touch call. as a result I think they should then agree that those 60kWh reservation holders who configured can have it for free or a reduced rate due to the timing and perception impact. The rest go in knowing full well the cost implications.

Tesla is known, and prides itself, on being not just another car company. I hope they step up and show it in this case. Admit fault, fix it and move on.

 

[stephenpace]

warp hyperdrive

I wouldn't pay a penny more than $1,000,000 for warp hyperdrive, but it would probably be a good value since you could do asteroid mining. Lots of room in the frunk for storage when you find a gold one. If people were annoyed about driving with the air conditioning off, though, wait until they find out they have to wear space suits.

 

[AnOutsider]

That said, this sucks. I get that they weren't ready to announce in July, and had to make a touch call. as a result I think they should then agree that those 60kWh reservation holders who configured can have it for free or a reduced rate due to the timing and perception impact. The rest go in knowing full well the cost implications.

They did exactly that. They're giving it to those who have already locked in for 1k instead of the 2k it'll cost from now on.

 

[jerry33]

I wouldn't pay a penny more than $1,000,000 for warp hyperdrive, but it would probably be a good value since you could do asteroid mining. Lots of room in the frunk for storage when you find a gold one. If people were annoyed about driving with the air conditioning off, though, wait until they find out they have to wear space suits.

Just don't open the pano roof and you should be okay.

 

[aviators99]

AV99, can you take a moment to clarify what problems you mean? Wondering what issues have come up - thanks.

Model S Technical / Mechanical Issues

 

[teslasguy]

Looks to me like a lot of posts here are missing the key point. This isn't about whether 65kw owners have to pay to use the SCs, but rather that they have to agree within 10 days to an extra $1k charge or forever lose the ability. This is coming after Tesla said Supercharging capability was included. I'm getting the 85kw performance version. But if if I were getting the 65kw version I would be pretty upset. My 2 cents as a huge Tesla fan.


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[smorgasbord]

I don't know if this will help anyone with their decision, but QuickCharging (using the inferior Chademo connector and protocol) is a $700 option on the Leaf. In the US, 350Green has some Chademo chargers (including one at the Stanford mall), and appears to be charging $7/session.

For those that have already configured a 60kWh car, that $300 difference is made up with 43 charges. For those that haven't, you're looking at 185 sessions. There's a resale value aspect to SC access as well, but that's hard to predict at this stage - most car options do not affect resale significantly.

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... 65kw owners ...

Just to stop any rumors that might appear - the middle battery size is 60kWh, not 65kWh, and not 65kW.
The small is 40 kWh.
The large is 85 kWh.