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Yep, it's pretty obvious, imo. There are a lot of things that have happened lately that (ime) are symptomatic of a company being pressured to move too quickly and announce/release things too early. Tie this together with public market pressures and a leader who is working 2 (maybe 3?) full-time jobs at the same time, and this is the kind of stuff you will see (including the actual vehicle problems we are starting to see). I am really stressed out myself, and it's not even my company. I have no doubt that the Model S will be the best car in the world, but I'm worried about the first couple thousand, of which mine will be one. But I also can't imagine waiting any longer for the car. Definitely letting my emotions get ahead of my brain here...
Granted I have no skin in this game, but that's what I always understood to be the case. I really think that people simply totally misunderstood what Tesla was saying.
Here's how I understood the procession of 60 kWh supercharging went:
1. TBD
2. Hardware included - cost to use SCs TBD.
3. Hardware included, $1k for lifetime SC access for people already in the queue, $2k for hardware and lifetime SC access for people who haven't entered the queue yet.
Makes logical sense to me - and early 60 kWh adopters are getting access for half-price. If you don't like the price of the feature, don't buy it!
Software is tuned the battery. Think about the engineering solution they are trying to solve. When it comes time to replace the battery there will be another "fee"
I'm confused as to why people automatically assume a conspiracy or horrible motives to a situation that *might* just be exactly how George described it? I'm not an apologist for Tesla (I still think the decision to to not include Roadster or 40 kWh Model S HPC charging at Supercharger sites isn't a good one) but some of the negativity that I see on this forum (which is supposed to be a Tesla enthusiast forum) sometimes astounds me.
engle
Member
TSLA uses the common corporate email address convention of <first initial><last name>@teslamotors.com
I have removed actual email addresses so these people don't get SPAM.
Happy TSLA did the right thing by not charging 60 Kwh MVPA-signers the extra fee to "enable" their SC hardware. Excellent good will gesture, IMHO.
Have a great day!
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Thanks engle. But maybe you should not post these email addresses in the clear for spambots to pick up.
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When was this the case? AFAIK, they originally said "Optional" and price "TBD" and then they said "Included" and "Included".
Not buying is not an option for those already under contract. I guess you mean don't buy the feature. But really those of under contract should be allowed to cancel and get our deposits back if we choose.
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When was this the case? AFAIK, they originally said "Optional" and price "TBD" and then they said "Included" and "Included".
Not buying is not an option for those already under contract. I guess you mean don't buy the feature. But really those of under contract should be allowed to cancel and get our deposits back if we choose.
Hi everyone,
Let me explain a little further. Mark posted my response to him so I won’t duplicate the post. Thanks Mark, your posting is appreciated. AnOutsider, sorry, but we did not know all the details back in July, nor did we know them two to three weeks ago. The equipment we are using to Supercharge is significant, and took a lot of coordination with local utilities to deliver and activate. All utilities have been very cooperative, and many expedited things for us to make last Monday night happen. But to say the least, it was a very last minute rush to get everything in place. We also didn’t have firm “usage fees” locked down with the utilities that supply the electricity until very recently. It turns out that not only do we have to pay for metered usage, but because of the type of service, in many cases there is a “first usage” fee each month that is quite significant. We have been working thru all these costs and logistics for months.
As I said to Mark, there is nothing hidden going on here. We had hoped to announce the Supercharger network in July. It was impossible to do so. We had to delay the launch until September because there were too many unknowns. We didn’t finalize all the moving parts about pricing until late last night while I was in Boston.
What we always wanted to do was keep Supercharging access easy and the usage fee to a minimum. We also wanted to move the system towards solar. And while all of this was going on, we wanted to make sure to keep options open for everyone who was configuring their car throughout the process. In order to do so, we made the decision to include the necessary hardware in all cars that were being built. This would give everyone the exact same option today as they had in July.
If we had launched in July, the prices for Supercharging would have been:
85 kWh No charge
60 kWh $2000
40 kWh Not available
Those are the exact prices today, except for those who have configured their car already with 60 kWh batteries. For them it is $1,000.
We discussed lots of options for pricing over the past 4 months. Some included an activation fee plus pay-as-you-go fees. But pay-as-you-go fees would require some sort of password, special key or credit card debit arrangement. We did not want to do that. We seriously considered at least 6 or 7 optional payment alternatives, but eventually circled back to keeping it simple… keeping it standard on the 85 kWh cars, and having it as an optional one-time fee when the car is built on 60 kWh cars. Then we wrestled thru a series of other details:
Should the access be free and unlimited, or should it be free for a few years and then have an annual fee…we opted for free and unlimited.
Can it be passed on to a future owner – we decided yes. Should the new owner have to pay an activation fee even though access is free – we decided no. We felt as though these two decisions would increase the value of your Model S.
We went thru a whole series of these scenarios, but ultimately ended up with as simple a solution as we could find. And all this was finalized in the last week.
We also considered what would happen today when we made this announcement. We were pretty sure there would be questions about the language on the Options & Pricing page, the Design Studio and the MVPA. They all said “hardware” and some said “software” would be included in the car. None of them said access was included. It would have been much easier today to go the less controversial “pay-as-you-go” route. There would have been no question about the language to date. We also considered a “per visit fee” that would also have been less controversial. But when we weighed those options, and the need to use a credit card every time you Supercharge, or the need to have a “special key” or “password” to enable the unit each time, we just visualized people out on the road who forgot their password or key, and we just didn’t think that was the right way to go. We really wanted to keep it free, easy, and unlimited. So we felt it was better to go forward with it as “an option” for those who want to consider it, but keep the plan we think is best in the long run, is easy to use, and unlimited.
When the time came to announce the finalized plan, we wanted to acknowledge those who had already configured. Our goal all along was to make sure they had the same option today as they would have had no matter when they finalized their order. We accomplished that by including the necessary hardware and software in their car, but then we decided to do something additional for them. While it may not be viewed that way, that is why we have offered them the option to enable Supercharging for $1,000 vs $2,000. Simultaneously with the announcement today, we sent emails to everyone who has configured a 60 kWh car giving them the option to enable access for $1,000, while also answering a series of questions we thought they might have. We are also individually calling a few customers who have paperwork in hand for a 60 kWh Model S but did not finalize their paperwork this week. We are offering them the $1,000 option as well. We began making these calls at the exact same time as the announcement was released and the emails went out.
To wrap this up, we have tried to keep use of the system simple, we have made it unlimited and transferable, and we wanted to do something nice for those who configured early without full details. That’s how we got to today.
There were also a few references in this thread to other things that have not been announced. It is certainly not that way by desire. Connectivity was mentioned. We have not announced details on this because we are still working on the rates from various carriers. If we had announced the plan two months ago, it would have been more expensive than if we announced it today. We have also been working to simplify a very viable connectivity solution that, if chosen today, would be less expensive, but a pain in the butt to execute. We are trying to enable another way to use this method in a simple way, but we want to make sure we can do it before making an announcement about it. We are actively working on connectivity every day to try and get the most cost effective functionality that is easy to use. We will announce the options when we feel we have the best outcome and pricing possible. We are also working on an extended warranty, pre-paid battery replacement options, and road hazard insurance. None are ready to be announced, but all are being actively worked on. We will announce them when, and if, we are satisfied with the program details.
I hope this helps explain some of what we are doing. While it may not seem so, we are doing a lot of things everyday that are focused specifically on ease of use and minimizing cost for every Model S owner. We will continue to do so.
GeorgeB
Let me explain a little further. Mark posted my response to him so I won’t duplicate the post. Thanks Mark, your posting is appreciated. AnOutsider, sorry, but we did not know all the details back in July, nor did we know them two to three weeks ago. The equipment we are using to Supercharge is significant, and took a lot of coordination with local utilities to deliver and activate. All utilities have been very cooperative, and many expedited things for us to make last Monday night happen. But to say the least, it was a very last minute rush to get everything in place. We also didn’t have firm “usage fees” locked down with the utilities that supply the electricity until very recently. It turns out that not only do we have to pay for metered usage, but because of the type of service, in many cases there is a “first usage” fee each month that is quite significant. We have been working thru all these costs and logistics for months.
As I said to Mark, there is nothing hidden going on here. We had hoped to announce the Supercharger network in July. It was impossible to do so. We had to delay the launch until September because there were too many unknowns. We didn’t finalize all the moving parts about pricing until late last night while I was in Boston.
What we always wanted to do was keep Supercharging access easy and the usage fee to a minimum. We also wanted to move the system towards solar. And while all of this was going on, we wanted to make sure to keep options open for everyone who was configuring their car throughout the process. In order to do so, we made the decision to include the necessary hardware in all cars that were being built. This would give everyone the exact same option today as they had in July.
If we had launched in July, the prices for Supercharging would have been:
85 kWh No charge
60 kWh $2000
40 kWh Not available
Those are the exact prices today, except for those who have configured their car already with 60 kWh batteries. For them it is $1,000.
We discussed lots of options for pricing over the past 4 months. Some included an activation fee plus pay-as-you-go fees. But pay-as-you-go fees would require some sort of password, special key or credit card debit arrangement. We did not want to do that. We seriously considered at least 6 or 7 optional payment alternatives, but eventually circled back to keeping it simple… keeping it standard on the 85 kWh cars, and having it as an optional one-time fee when the car is built on 60 kWh cars. Then we wrestled thru a series of other details:
Should the access be free and unlimited, or should it be free for a few years and then have an annual fee…we opted for free and unlimited.
Can it be passed on to a future owner – we decided yes. Should the new owner have to pay an activation fee even though access is free – we decided no. We felt as though these two decisions would increase the value of your Model S.
We went thru a whole series of these scenarios, but ultimately ended up with as simple a solution as we could find. And all this was finalized in the last week.
We also considered what would happen today when we made this announcement. We were pretty sure there would be questions about the language on the Options & Pricing page, the Design Studio and the MVPA. They all said “hardware” and some said “software” would be included in the car. None of them said access was included. It would have been much easier today to go the less controversial “pay-as-you-go” route. There would have been no question about the language to date. We also considered a “per visit fee” that would also have been less controversial. But when we weighed those options, and the need to use a credit card every time you Supercharge, or the need to have a “special key” or “password” to enable the unit each time, we just visualized people out on the road who forgot their password or key, and we just didn’t think that was the right way to go. We really wanted to keep it free, easy, and unlimited. So we felt it was better to go forward with it as “an option” for those who want to consider it, but keep the plan we think is best in the long run, is easy to use, and unlimited.
When the time came to announce the finalized plan, we wanted to acknowledge those who had already configured. Our goal all along was to make sure they had the same option today as they would have had no matter when they finalized their order. We accomplished that by including the necessary hardware and software in their car, but then we decided to do something additional for them. While it may not be viewed that way, that is why we have offered them the option to enable Supercharging for $1,000 vs $2,000. Simultaneously with the announcement today, we sent emails to everyone who has configured a 60 kWh car giving them the option to enable access for $1,000, while also answering a series of questions we thought they might have. We are also individually calling a few customers who have paperwork in hand for a 60 kWh Model S but did not finalize their paperwork this week. We are offering them the $1,000 option as well. We began making these calls at the exact same time as the announcement was released and the emails went out.
To wrap this up, we have tried to keep use of the system simple, we have made it unlimited and transferable, and we wanted to do something nice for those who configured early without full details. That’s how we got to today.
There were also a few references in this thread to other things that have not been announced. It is certainly not that way by desire. Connectivity was mentioned. We have not announced details on this because we are still working on the rates from various carriers. If we had announced the plan two months ago, it would have been more expensive than if we announced it today. We have also been working to simplify a very viable connectivity solution that, if chosen today, would be less expensive, but a pain in the butt to execute. We are trying to enable another way to use this method in a simple way, but we want to make sure we can do it before making an announcement about it. We are actively working on connectivity every day to try and get the most cost effective functionality that is easy to use. We will announce the options when we feel we have the best outcome and pricing possible. We are also working on an extended warranty, pre-paid battery replacement options, and road hazard insurance. None are ready to be announced, but all are being actively worked on. We will announce them when, and if, we are satisfied with the program details.
I hope this helps explain some of what we are doing. While it may not seem so, we are doing a lot of things everyday that are focused specifically on ease of use and minimizing cost for every Model S owner. We will continue to do so.
GeorgeB
Excellent clarifications George. I have no skin in the game having ordered 85kwh, but it sucks to see communication issues plague Tesla, so good to have a clearer picture.
*edit* the decision is made, but since its software, you could have had the user pay via the S on screen to keep a subscription going for SC access. No passwords or cards to swipe. Free is better of course, but just an alternative that occurred to me.
*edit* the decision is made, but since its software, you could have had the user pay via the S on screen to keep a subscription going for SC access. No passwords or cards to swipe. Free is better of course, but just an alternative that occurred to me.
favo
P3D+ owner
Thanks for the clarifications, George. I can think of one more question that was raised. Is the Supercharger charger access free for the life of the car or life of the battery? From your answer, I will guess the former, but it wouldn't hurt to make it explicit in this thread, lest someone jump to conclusions. 
gg_got_a_tesla
Model S: VIN 65513, Model 3: VIN 1913
Thanks, George. We are definitely a hard bunch to please and are holding Tesla to some very high standards that you appear to be doing your best to live up to - which other auto manufacturer is engaged with its customer base this way?!
That said, unfortunately, Tesla did lose atleast a couple of customers over this and possibly reduced revenue from some others - stepping down to 40 kWh etc. - including myself (I had to give up an option to get SC).
Please, please maintain a simple, public "punch list" somewhere on your website; nothing more than a list of line items that you are actively working on - no elaborate details or incomplete specs required. Things coming out of the blue for us customers is jarring and disconcerting although folks at Tesla may have been working on them for months. Had the service plans or the 60 kWh SC access model been mentioned from atleast earlier this year as things in the oven, the disappointment or unhappiness may have been more tempered once they saw the light of day. Just my 2 Abe Lincolns...
That said, unfortunately, Tesla did lose atleast a couple of customers over this and possibly reduced revenue from some others - stepping down to 40 kWh etc. - including myself (I had to give up an option to get SC).
Please, please maintain a simple, public "punch list" somewhere on your website; nothing more than a list of line items that you are actively working on - no elaborate details or incomplete specs required. Things coming out of the blue for us customers is jarring and disconcerting although folks at Tesla may have been working on them for months. Had the service plans or the 60 kWh SC access model been mentioned from atleast earlier this year as things in the oven, the disappointment or unhappiness may have been more tempered once they saw the light of day. Just my 2 Abe Lincolns...
AnOutsider - We looked at payment thru the touchscreen, but we were concerned that the Supercharger location might not have strong cellular coverage and therefore not connect...and we agree, free is better. Free was always the goal, and is where we ended up.
favo - i hate jumping to conclusions gg_wants_a_tesla is right... It is on the car.
gg_wants_a_tesla - I'm still up at 5:30 in the morning trying to answer all the questions I can on this subject. I agree there's got to be a better way. I've been trying to answer as much as I can here from time to time. Unfortunately things here seem to spawn more and more "inaccurate speculation" today than they used to. For instance, Supercharger access being tied to the battery, not the car. We have never said it was tied to the battery, yet that seems to have become a "truth" in a matter of minutes and generated "concern" that should have never been. I've got to come up with a way to provide information that doesn't then generate a stampede of inaccurate assumptions that end up causing unnecessary angst. I am pretty much known for telling it like it is. I need to figure out a way to do that with this group in a way that doesn't end up causing more problems than it achieves in answering questions. Let me think about it a little. I'll come up with something...there's definitely a better way
Have a great weekend!
GeorgeB
favo - i hate jumping to conclusions
gg_wants_a_tesla is right... It is on the car.gg_wants_a_tesla - I'm still up at 5:30 in the morning trying to answer all the questions I can on this subject. I agree there's got to be a better way. I've been trying to answer as much as I can here from time to time. Unfortunately things here seem to spawn more and more "inaccurate speculation" today than they used to. For instance, Supercharger access being tied to the battery, not the car. We have never said it was tied to the battery, yet that seems to have become a "truth" in a matter of minutes and generated "concern" that should have never been. I've got to come up with a way to provide information that doesn't then generate a stampede of inaccurate assumptions that end up causing unnecessary angst. I am pretty much known for telling it like it is. I need to figure out a way to do that with this group in a way that doesn't end up causing more problems than it achieves in answering questions. Let me think about it a little. I'll come up with something...there's definitely a better way
Have a great weekend!
GeorgeB
While you're at it, you may as well solve world peace, unify general relativity with quantum mechanics and prove the Riemann Hypothesis.:biggrin:
AnOutsider - We looked at payment thru the touchscreen, but we were concerned that the Supercharger location might not have strong cellular coverage and therefore not connect...and we agree, free is better. Free was always the goal, and is where we ended up.
favo - i hate jumping to conclusions
gg_wants_a_tesla - I'm still up at 5:30 in the morning trying to answer all the questions I can on this subject. I agree there's got to be a better way. I've been trying to answer as much as I can here from time to time. Unfortunately things here seem to spawn more and more "inaccurate speculation" today than they used to. For instance, Supercharger access being tied to the battery, not the car. We have never said it was tied to the battery, yet that seems to have become a "truth" in a matter of minutes and generated "concern" that should have never been. I've got to come up with a way to provide information that doesn't then generate a stampede of inaccurate assumptions that end up causing unnecessary angst. I am pretty much known for telling it like it is. I need to figure out a way to do that with this group in a way that doesn't end up causing more problems than it achieves in answering questions. Let me think about it a little. I'll come up with something...there's definitely a better way
Have a great weekend!
GeorgeB
I wish I had more than two thumbs. You get them both. Up, of course.
AnOutsider - We looked at payment thru the touchscreen, but we were concerned that the Supercharger location might not have strong cellular coverage and therefore not connect...and we agree, free is better. Free was always the goal, and is where we ended up.
favo - i hate jumping to conclusions
gg_wants_a_tesla - I'm still up at 5:30 in the morning trying to answer all the questions I can on this subject. I agree there's got to be a better way. I've been trying to answer as much as I can here from time to time. Unfortunately things here seem to spawn more and more "inaccurate speculation" today than they used to. For instance, Supercharger access being tied to the battery, not the car. We have never said it was tied to the battery, yet that seems to have become a "truth" in a matter of minutes and generated "concern" that should have never been. I've got to come up with a way to provide information that doesn't then generate a stampede of inaccurate assumptions that end up causing unnecessary angst. I am pretty much known for telling it like it is. I need to figure out a way to do that with this group in a way that doesn't end up causing more problems than it achieves in answering questions. Let me think about it a little. I'll come up with something...there's definitely a better way
Have a great weekend!
GeorgeB
Thanks George. I agree a more coordinated communications effort would be great and having the web team, store and other staff on the same page much be difficult so we appreciate you being straightforward. Some things will create angst no matter how it is presented. Have a great weekend as well.
I doubt Telsa uses gmail or yahoo and that address has been posted many times before. Any corporate MTA will be dropping spam ip-addresses and filtering spam. Of course it's an ongoing fight, but there's no reason to not post an address like that in the clear.
George,
Thanks for the responses. As one of those squarely in the middle of this particular item, the additional communication is very welcome. (And yeah, as PhatCat said, you might be looking for a miracle - i have a feeling that a lot of the angst lately will dry up as we all get our cars in hand. The last few miles of the trip are often the most painful).
I also talked to a tesla rep last night while i was mulling over my options (and the wife mentioned upgrading to the 85 as something we should think about this morning, whichi hadnt been considering). He was also helpful. I got confirmation from him that the notional circles on the supercharger map were supposed to be in the 100 to 150 mile range, and he also said that the 60 kwh battery would charge at proportionately the same speed as the 85, so slower, but the same time to a full pack. I dont think ive seen that mentioned here before.
Still mulling over the decision.....
Thanks for the responses. As one of those squarely in the middle of this particular item, the additional communication is very welcome. (And yeah, as PhatCat said, you might be looking for a miracle - i have a feeling that a lot of the angst lately will dry up as we all get our cars in hand. The last few miles of the trip are often the most painful).
I also talked to a tesla rep last night while i was mulling over my options (and the wife mentioned upgrading to the 85 as something we should think about this morning, whichi hadnt been considering). He was also helpful. I got confirmation from him that the notional circles on the supercharger map were supposed to be in the 100 to 150 mile range, and he also said that the 60 kwh battery would charge at proportionately the same speed as the 85, so slower, but the same time to a full pack. I dont think ive seen that mentioned here before.
Still mulling over the decision.....
I think this is understandable because as it gets closer to the time when people actually have to fork out hard cash they become a bit more paranoid about extra fees, hidden charges, and can I still afford this car. For many of us this is 2x, 3x, or 4x the amount that we've ever paid for a car and I'm guessing that many folks here would never pay more than $3[0-9],000 for an ICE car. For me, the Model S will now--after adding the maintenance and more-or-less-mandatory pano roof so that adults can sit in the back seat--cost more than I paid for my house (although not more than what I paid plus improvements).
I like the idea of a punch list that gg_wants_a_tesla suggested, but I understand the problems with also wanting to surprise folks with cool things and not giving the detractors too much ammunition for speculation. Perhaps timing is the key. If the maintenance and the supercharger had been announced at the same time, I believe there would be far less grumbling over the maintenance because, at least for those like me who take vacation trips, one goes a long way to offset the other.
While all of this sucks for people getting surprised by things, once they are underway in full production and into next year, all expenses should be known by that point and people can reserve knowing exactly what they are getting.
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