Taycan Takedown

[dfwatt]

It seems to me that your bias and tribalism makes you read things that aren't there. There is no need to get defensive about charging infrastructure. It will help EVs as a whole, probably including Tesla drivers at some point (assuming Tesla will release a North America version of their CCS adapter).

Oh brother. We're having a debate about the relative strengths of Tesla's charging Network. Tribalism has nothing to do with it. Curious you mentioned that as I just edited two book chapters on the subject so I understand the concept. But just to help you reality test your ad hominem attack, I love Porsche. They're a great company. They make very fine cars. 2 years ago I came very close to getting a Cayman S with a boatload of options instead of ordering a Model 3. But I'm glad I didn't. In any case I'd love to see their EV design be successful because I think it would force Tesla to up their game. And the more Elite Talent gets involved in electric vehicles the faster the transition can happen to a sustainable Transportation architecture. And that transition can't happen soon enough given every indication that climate change is accelerating past the most pessimistic projections. So that's where I'm coming from.

On the other hand, Tesla deserves the credit for taking the massively risky initial undertaking, in investing in a totally unproven and risky EV design and also for understanding the critical importance of a charging infrastructure and for investing billions in theirs.

So let's put down the ad hominem attacks, and talk about the facts. Your argument is weak on facts and long on assertions that don't square with them. I simply disagree with you that's all. Is that allowed?

 

[brucet999]

Interesting. This brochure also has more detailed battery specs: the capacity is 93.4 kWh gross and 83.7 kWh net, so a buffer of ~10%.

Makes for faster charge rates to "100%" because little taper will be necessary. Also guarantees good regen on full charge.

 

[WilliamG]

Did you guys see this?

Tesla Model 3 Performance tries out Porsche's 0-90-0 mph aircraft carrier challenge

As I posted there:

FYI, carbon ceramic brakes will NOT help in this test, so it IS actually a fair comparison in that regard. The limiting factor on a one-off test like this will be tires. Carbon ceramics etc only help on repeated braking events. Even the base Standard Range Model 3 brakes will stop the Model 3 just as fast as the carbon ceramic brakes. There would be exactly ZERO difference between the base Model 3 brakes and the biggest brakes in the world - in this test. Tires will be the deciding factor here.

The results here are incredible. That we're even comparing a Taycan Turbo S and a Model 3 Performance - is just staggering to me.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Interesting. This brochure also has more detailed battery specs: the capacity is 93.4 kWh gross and 83.7 kWh net, so a buffer of ~10%.

Yeah, this is in line with the e-tron, so not too surprising, it was mostly expected (and is one reason the range is surprisingly low). As mentioned above, it’ll be interesting to see that kWh/100mi rating from the EPA to really see how they are doing on drivetrain efficiency. Given the weight, something similar to Model S P100DL would be excellent. I expect it to be worse.

 

[FlatSix911]

Did you guys see this? Tesla Model 3 Performance tries out Porsche's 0-90-0 mph aircraft carrier challenge As I posted there:

FYI, carbon ceramic brakes will NOT help in this test, so it IS actually a fair comparison in that regard. The limiting factor on a one-off test like this will be tires. Carbon ceramics etc only help on repeated braking events. Even the base Standard Range Model 3 brakes will stop the Model 3 just as fast as the carbon ceramic brakes. There would be exactly ZERO difference between the base Model 3 brakes and the biggest brakes in the world - in this test. Tires will be the deciding factor here.

The results here are incredible. That we're even comparing a Taycan Turbo S and a Model 3 Performance - is just staggering to me.

 

[WilliamG]

Without the article, those numbers don't tell the whole story. It's just incredible, really.

 

[dfwatt]

Eric kind of underplayed also the state of charge at the time of testing. I think he was under 70% or something like that. So you can easily see shaving 2/10 off his time if not more, potentially bringing the Tesla Model 3 in at 10.5 to 10.6 seconds in an optimal run.

 

[WilliamG]

Eric kind of underplayed also the state of charge at the time of testing. I think he was under 70% or something like that. So you can easily see shaving 2/10 off his time if not more, potentially bringing the Tesla Model 3 in at 10.5 to 10.6 seconds in an optimal run.

Yeah, good catch. I'd love to see some more testing on this.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Without the article, those numbers don't tell the whole story. It's just incredible, really.

Why is it incredible? The Taycan 1/4 mile time is only a few tenths faster than a P3D so this seems obvious.
The Taycan’s only acceleration advantage is at higher speeds where it can use its second gear.

 

[Eno Deb]

Why is it incredible? The Taycan 1/4 mile time is only a few tenths faster than a P3D so this seems obvious.

Now let the Tesla driver repeat the test on a bumpy carrier deck with the end of the runway closing in rapidly.

The Taycan’s only acceleration advantage is at higher speeds where it can use its second gear.

And the 600+ hp. When using launch mode (which they obviously didn't use on the carrier) it's much faster. Without launch mode, a P100D also isn't that much faster than a P3D ...

 

[Daniel in SD]

Now let the Tesla driver repeat the test on a bumpy carrier deck with the end of the runway closing in rapidly.
And the 600+ hp. When using launch mode (which they obviously didn't use on the carrier) it's much faster. Without launch mode, a P100D also isn't that much faster than a P3D ...

It also weighs 25% more. Not very incredible that it has similar acceleration.
I want to see lap times!

 

[Eno Deb]

It also weighs 25% more. Not very incredible that it has similar acceleration.

I wouldn't call 0-60 in 2.6s similar to what, 3.4s for the Model 3 (assuming the Porsche number is conservative as usual and does not exclude rollout). But yes, it's true that the difference is more pronounced at higher speeds (0-200km/h takes about 14s for the P3D and about 10s for the Taycan).

I want to see lap times!

Yes! I hope they really do a run with the Model S (and perhaps a Model 3?) on the Ring next week as Elon twittered.

 

[FlatSix911]

Cross-post from another thread... too funny

It would have been fun to photoshop off the badges and put Tesla badges on that and show it to people who didn't know about the Taycan and see what their reaction is.

​

Just rename it, you could call it the Tesla Model $ SRS ($= Expensive, SR = Short Range, S= Slow charging & slow moving).

I'm just glad there is a competitor in the BEV segment that Tesla still beats....​

​

 

[ICUDoc]

Without launch mode, a P100D also isn't that much faster than a P3D ...

Sorry, can you confirm that please? I thought a P100DL was more than 0.6 secs after to 60 than a M3? Is that ONLY in launch mode?

 

[Daniel in SD]

I wouldn't call 0-60 in 2.6s similar to what, 3.4s for the Model 3 (assuming the Porsche number is conservative as usual and does not exclude rollout). But yes, it's true that the difference is more pronounced at higher speeds (0-200km/h takes about 14s for the P3D and about 10s for the Taycan).
Yes! I hope they really do a run with the Model S (and perhaps a Model 3?) on the Ring next week as Elon twittered.

I have to admit I’ve lost track of all the 0-60, overboost, launch control, 1 foot rollout, ludicrous, etc. minutiae. The 0-60 obsession among Tesla owners is ridiculous (though I am envious of the P3D. Haha).

 

[Eno Deb]

Sorry, can you confirm that please? I thought a P100DL was more than 0.6 secs after to 60 than a M3? Is that ONLY in launch mode?

To get the advertised 2.4s (excluding rollout) you need to (1) activate Ludicrous mode (which requires pressing the button for a few seconds), (2) place the car in launch mode (press brake, press accelerator, release accelerator, press accelerator again, release brake), and go (this is where it gets shocking ). Without that preparation it's closer to 3s.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

This is why Teslarati is silly. Well...one of the reasons, anyway. The maximum acceleration for a stock P3D is about 0.9g. Everyone knows that. Everyone also knows that the peak numbers on the Vbox chart can't be trusted. Just look at the slope of the plot! The high peak numbers are generated by noisy data.

Clearly in the steepest part of the curve, the acceleration is about 0.8g. At max...0.9g. You'd have to zoom in on the original data (it looks like a pretty poor capture to be honest) to see the exact value...

To accelerate at 1g, the P3D would have to produce over 540-570 lb-ft of torque combined out of the motors. It does not do this.

Sigh.

Also, they didn't mention that 1000 feet puts you in the drink. Though if they had actually only gone to 90mph presumably it would have been a lot closer. They covered a bit over 132 feet in the 1 second to go from 90 to 97mph...not sure why he didn't start slowing sooner as that indicates fairly slow reactions. Didn't watch the video.

 

[CarlK]

The Model S isn't a Taycan killer either.
The idea that any car could be better than another car in every single way makes no sense.

The Model 3 is actually the Taycan killer. Hard to believe but many on the Porsche forum say they were disappointed with the Taycan, even before the latest pricing reveal, and either bought or will buy a Model 3. They say I could buy a Model 3 and a 911 with that money. Doesn't it make sense?

Value is still what people are looking for. Money no subject people are VERY rare.

 

[Daniel in SD]

The Model 3 is actually the Taycan killer. Hard to believe but many on the Porsche forum say they were disappointed with the Taycan, even before the latest pricing reveal, and either bought or will buy a Model 3. They say I could buy a Model 3 and a 911 with that money. Doesn't it make sense?

Value is still what people are looking for. Money no subject people are VERY rare.

I'm not sure how Porsche sells any cars then. The 911 Turbo S starts at $190k, the same as the Taycan Turbo S (such a dumb name!). They have similar straight line performance (911 is 0.2s faster for the 1/4 mile but 0.2s slower to 60). The Taycan is slower around the Nurburgring but I suspect it will actually be faster around lower speed tracks (i.e. most tracks). Seems like it's priced in line with the rest of their lineup.

 

[CarlK]

I'm not sure how Porsche sells any cars then. The 911 Turbo S starts at $190k, the same as the Taycan Turbo S (such a dumb name!). They have similar straight line performance (911 is 0.2s faster for the 1/4 mile but 0.2s slower to 60). The Taycan is slower around the Nurburgring but I suspect it will actually be faster around lower speed tracks (i.e. most tracks). Seems like it's priced in line with the rest of their lineup.

There is one big difference. There is no alternative for 911. Can't say that for the Taycan. Also don't forget even for such an iconic model Porsche could only sell a few thousands 911 turbo/turbo S a year at that price.