Tesla AutoPilot Version 2 - Able to use data from 8 cameras or only 4?

[YVR88]

If one springs for the Full Self-Driving Capacity one gets 8 cameras instead of 4.

I understand the Fill Self-Driving Capacity is not active yet and might take a while before it is rolled out.

Is the current autopilot able to access and use the four additional cameras at the moment for the basic Autopilot?

Or are the extra 4 cameras not active until the Self-Driving Capacity is activated.

Having an extra four cameras connected should be a good thing one would think?

Any ideas?

 

[MP3Mike]

Only Tesla would know that, but since they said that EAP only uses 4 cameras I doubt that the other 4 will be used before they start rolling out the post-EAP features. (i.e. FSD.)

 

[phaduman]

good points. that means, EAP might not provide any better Blind SPoT detection than current AP1.0 systems - which rely solely on the (short range) ultrasonic (ultra-slow) sensors. AP2.0 hw has longer range, but is that any faster - many doubt it. If side cameras are not used, then there is sure home the back camera can help improve the blind spot detection function.

And if so, I would hope someday AP1.0 cars could utilize the rear-camera for the same reasons (though the compute resources are lacking, but who knows, the s/w could still do some magic?)....oh well.

 

[malcolm]

AFAIK Tesla's full AP software is running in the background and is contributing to fleet learning during the current AP 1 to AP 2 transition period. It just doesn't control the vehicle as fully as it could at present.

So I assume that all cameras, ultrasonics and the radar are involved in this testing phase but only some are contributing to the present level of AP functionality (depending on which firmware version us armchair engineers believe to be "superior" and allow to be installed )

 

[MP3Mike]

good points. that means, EAP might not provide any better Blind SPoT detection than current AP1.0 systems

EAP should have much better blind spot detection. (It uses two forward looking cameras and the two rear facing side cameras according to Tesla.)

 

[phaduman]

EAP should have much better blind spot detection. (It uses two forward looking cameras and the two rear facing side cameras according to Tesla.)

Well, Tesla specifically states the EAP will only use 4 cameras (3 up front, and 1 back). If they are sticking to that, then I doubt they will use side cameras for blind spot detection. In my opinion, side cameras are needed for reliable blind spot detection (some additional radars would have been the best option, but that is another story....)

 

[Waiting4M3]

I suspect at some point all 8 cameras will start working at least in the background to collect data for fleet learning in preparation for FSD. But I don't expect them to be involved in the operation of the car from day 1. For one the SW may not have been optimized. Think of it like 64 bit apps, even if the HW supports 64 bit, not all apps get switched to 64 bit immediately. How the data from the extra 4 cameras are used probably will depend on what driving scenarios the FSD will need to handle, and that will take time to collect.

 

[MP3Mike]

Well, Tesla specifically states the EAP will only use 4 cameras (3 up front, and 1 back). If they are sticking to that, then I doubt they will use side cameras for blind spot detection. In my opinion, side cameras are needed for reliable blind spot detection (some additional radars would have been the best option, but that is another story....)

@phaduman Where do they say that they use the front 3 and the 1 back camera for EAP? That certainly isn't what I have seen them say:

 

[brkaus]

I wish they would just list the feature set of each level. Of course, maybe they have learned and don't want to commit.

But who really cares if it's using 1, 4, 8, 100 cameras. It's what's he car does with them that matters.

The listing implies AP2.0 EAP to do true onramp to offramp, more advanced summon, auto park (from the drivers seat).

Everything else is FSDC.

 

[phaduman]

I captured this (below) from the custom order page for Model S. Clearly states for FSD, that the # of cameras "double" from four to eight. Clearly, for EAP, they are NOT using 4 of the cameras. Interesting though, is, which 4 they are NOT using in EAP.

 

[dsnows]

AP for $5000 seems like an obvious upgrade choice. FSD capability activates 4 additional cameras for another $3000. FSD is not legal in many places as far as I know. So, my question is, does EAP take advantage of the additional active cameras if I pay extra for FSD. Will I get any benefit now, before self driving is legally allowed. Will EAP work better?

 

[Tam]

...does EAP take advantage of the additional active cameras...

EAP is still in its infancy so it's possible that Tesla has been activating functions of sensors incrementally (like only 1 camera out of 8 for now...).

It's possible that there's no benefit initially but as more sensors are activated, it will be more beneficial.

 

[animorph]

I doubt Tesla will run two versions of EAP so I expect it will use 4 cameras only. Just my opinion of course.

FSD is supposed to be incrementally implemented, and I would think nothing prevents them from giving you even a fully working FSD but require you to hold on to the steering wheel to avoid regulatory problems. So it should have plenty of benefit to owners even before final regulatory approvals. I do not expect that we will get no FSD until it is fully complete and fully approved.

 

[bob_p]

I also expect Tesla to run different software for EAP & FSD.

It seems more likely there will be only one AP software suite. When FSD has been purchased, the AP software will use the sensor data from all 8 cameras to improve object detection - and use the increased data to more safely operate under more driving conditions.

Cars operating only with EAP activated will be limited to data from only 4 cameras. Tesla may geofence EAP operations at some point to prevent it from working under conditions when the 4 cameras don't provide enough data for safe operation.

And when Tesla gets approval for FSD operation, they'll eliminate the nag about touching the steering wheel periodically.

 

[markn455]

I have wondered many of these same things. Here's one. If I purchase the full autonomous capability, are the 8 cameras used for EAP or are the 4 additional cameras dormant until they achieve full autonomy? Finally, If I decide to purchase full autonomy later, do they have to add any hardware to my care or does it come with the additional 4 cameras and perhaps just "turned off". My guess is everything is there and they just cash your check and turn it on.

I expect they are using all cameras and all sensors all the time to collect date. Even if you don't purchase EAP, I bet they are singing everything to collect data for the greater good.

 

[bob_p]

Tesla doesn't provide any documentation on what hardware is actually being used for EAP or FSD, beyond what they list in marketing on the Tesla website. So everything you hear about EAP & FSD is based on unofficial information (something that Tesla really should fix).

EAP is supposed to use only 4 of the 8 cameras, along with the other radar and proximity sensors. Since the current EAP appears to be using AP1 software for AutoSteer, it appears that only 1 camera is currently being used for AS - we're not yet seeing the benefits of using 4 cameras for AutoPilot.

There are rumors that a recent software update has activated the extra 3 cameras for EAP, and while AutoSteer may only be using 1 camera for driving the car, the software may be using data from the additional cameras in "shadow mode" to check the operation of AutoSteer as a step towards using the data from all 4 cameras for EAP (soon?).

Activating FSD is supposed to make all 8 cameras available to the software. Musk recently stated that Tesla will do the cross-country FSD demonstration in the next 6 months, and that software will be rolled out to customer shortly after that. That demonstration would need to use all 8 cameras to operate without human intervention coast-to-coast. Does that mean we'll have Full Self Driving this year - NO. What it does mean is that EAP (operating as a driver assist feature) should be using all 8 cameras and operate under more conditions than cars with only the EAP feature activated (and limited to 4 cameras).

As for the need for future hardware upgrades - no one knows. Tesla clearly stated on their website when AP2 cars were purchased - that all Tesla cars had the hardware necessary to activate FSD, pending the completion of testing and regulatory approval. Since then, AP2.5 made some hardware changes, including an AP processor upgrade. If those changes or future AP improvements turn out to be needed to get FSD approved for use, it's unclear what Tesla's policy will be for upgrades.

Will those upgrades be available for free for customers purchasing FSD? Will there be an upgrade charge before FSD could be activated? Or will Tesla declare the cars can't be updated and refund the FSD activation fee?

Tesla hasn't made any official statements on this (comments from any Tesla staff, including Musk, don't count) - and until they provide something in writing on this - we're all guessing on what will happen years from now, if/when Tesla is able to get FSD approved for use.

 

[Evoyager]

Tesla doesn't provide any documentation on what hardware is actually being used for EAP or FSD, beyond what they list in marketing on the Tesla website. So everything you hear about EAP & FSD is based on unofficial information (something that Tesla really should fix).

EAP is supposed to use only 4 of the 8 cameras, along with the other radar and proximity sensors. Since the current EAP appears to be using AP1 software for AutoSteer, it appears that only 1 camera is currently being used for AS - we're not yet seeing the benefits of using 4 cameras for AutoPilot.

There are rumors that a recent software update has activated the extra 3 cameras for EAP, and while AutoSteer may only be using 1 camera for driving the car, the software may be using data from the additional cameras in "shadow mode" to check the operation of AutoSteer as a step towards using the data from all 4 cameras for EAP (soon?).

Activating FSD is supposed to make all 8 cameras available to the software. Musk recently stated that Tesla will do the cross-country FSD demonstration in the next 6 months, and that software will be rolled out to customer shortly after that. That demonstration would need to use all 8 cameras to operate without human intervention coast-to-coast. Does that mean we'll have Full Self Driving this year - NO. What it does mean is that EAP (operating as a driver assist feature) should be using all 8 cameras and operate under more conditions than cars with only the EAP feature activated (and limited to 4 cameras).

As for the need for future hardware upgrades - no one knows. Tesla clearly stated on their website when AP2 cars were purchased - that all Tesla cars had the hardware necessary to activate FSD, pending the completion of testing and regulatory approval. Since then, AP2.5 made some hardware changes, including an AP processor upgrade. If those changes or future AP improvements turn out to be needed to get FSD approved for use, it's unclear what Tesla's policy will be for upgrades.

Will those upgrades be available for free for customers purchasing FSD? Will there be an upgrade charge before FSD could be activated? Or will Tesla declare the cars can't be updated and refund the FSD activation fee?

Tesla hasn't made any official statements on this (comments from any Tesla staff, including Musk, don't count) - and until they provide something in writing on this - we're all guessing on what will happen years from now, if/when Tesla is able to get FSD approved for use.

Thanks Bob, I think that a very well reasoned and comprehensive assessment for those contemplating the FSD option.