Tesla belatedly tries to make their connector a North American standard

[kilpatds]

Yes it does include communications:

Claiming compatibility with plug&charge sort of incorporates all of the CCS spec, so that seems like an effective way of doing it...

But ...

They support plug&charge? I don't think the cars do yet. We don't have adapters to use to test the charging equipment either, but I've not seen anyone claiming P&C works in europe.

 

[voxel]

Because it is what they have already developed and are using?

Because it's a half-assed approach. These future EVs want access to existing Tesla Superchargers that use the NACS standard with CAN-bus.

Just using the connector means the new EVs will only talk to CCS compatible Tesla Superchargers (i.e V4) which I don't know if true of the old V1/V2/V3 hardware.,

 

[MP3Mike]

Because it's a half-assed approach. These future EVs want access to existing Tesla Superchargers that use the NACS standard with CAN-bus.

Why do they care about the Tesla CAN-bus Supercharger protocol?

Just using the connector means the new EVs will only talk to CCS compatible Tesla Superchargers (i.e V4) which I don't know if true of the old V1/V2/V3 hardware.,

V4 is not require for this, assuming it even exists. V2 and V3 Superchargers in Europe are compatible with CCS. Tesla could likely open the NA Supercharger network to any CCS compatible car with a NACS connector with just a Supercharger site software and database update. (Database so that the Tesla app can be used to start a CCS charging session.)

 

[MP3Mike]

They support plug&charge? I don't think the cars do yet.

But the connector does.

 

[Ezmendriz]

The EV are finally becoming more common. Charging on the road experience in other manufacturers is really bad in the US. Tesla could occupy the space just opening their standards. The communication part is trivial. Nothing short a firmware update in the station to support anything needed.

 

[wws]

Claiming compatibility with plug&charge sort of incorporates all of the CCS spec, so that seems like an effective way of doing it...

But ...

They support plug&charge? I don't think the cars do yet. We don't have adapters to use to test the charging equipment either, but I've not seen anyone claiming P&C works in europe.

Of course there are (at least) two competing versions of "plug and charge" in the CCS world...

 

[smogne41]

The EV are finally becoming more common. Charging on the road experience in other manufacturers is really bad in the US. Tesla could occupy the space just opening their standards. The communication part is trivial. Nothing short a firmware update in the station to support anything needed.

Not necessarily. CAN and PLC are completely differently electrically. It is possible that recent Superchargers have PLC compatible hardware for commonality with CCS2 markets. But we don't know that. CAN->PLC is NOT just a software update if the PLC hardware is not already present.

 

[kilpatds]

Of course there are (at least) two competing versions of "plug and charge" in the CCS world...

They referenced by spec, so ... they're referring to the "present a signed cert with your payment manager info" version[1], not the "I'll look up your CC# from your car's MAC address" version[2].

[1] Plug & Charge
[2] Autocharge

 

[Etna]

Anyone able to look at the cad diagrams to see the difference between the 1000V and the 500V versions?

Also: there's a 1kV version? Does that imply anything for future vehicles?

Here is a screenshot of the cad models.

They are geometrically nearly identical, and designed in a way that you can physically insert the 1000V connector into a 500V inlet but not the other way around. The 500V can't be inserted fully into the 1000V inlet and trigger the control and proximity pilots.

 

[brancky3]

There’s no way the Tesla connector would be the standard going forward. Move all infrastructure to something that Elon (extremely unstable recently) could revoke at any given time? Yea, no thanks.

 

[KJD]

Aptera has been pushing for the NACS to be the standard, and have shown it in use on their prototype vehicles. So there is your one automaker, once they actually start producing them.

Looks like it will happen.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1591143095202377728

 

[SVMike]

Here is a screenshot of the two cad models.

They are geometrically nearly identical, with a small difference: the plastic part in the center that's called the "inner Y feature" is thicker at the ends of the 500V than the 1000V one, This means you can plug in the 1000V connector into a 500V inlet but not the other way arou

Here is a screenshot of the cad models.

They are geometrically nearly identical, and designed in a way that you can physically insert the 1000V connector into a 500V inlet but not the other way around. The 500V can't be inserted fully into the 1000V inlet and trigger the control and proximity pilots.

I don't get why you should not be able to plug a 500v source cable into a car that can accept up to 1000v.
Does that mean that a new car that takes 1000v cannot use the vast number of existing 500v chargers?

 

[MP3Mike]

I don't get why you should not be able to plug a 500v source cable into a car that can accept up to 1000v.
Does that mean that a new car that takes 1000v cannot use the vast number of existing 500v chargers?

It looks to me like the 500v connector can go in far enough to work, but the car can probably detect that it isn't a 1000v capable port. That would allow the 1000v inlet to still work with all the 500v AC destination chargers. (Probably Superchargers as well, as long as the vehicle can deal with the 500v limit.)

 

[Etna]

I don't get why you should not be able to plug a 500v source cable into a car that can accept up to 1000v.
Does that mean that a new car that takes 1000v cannot use the vast number of existing 500v chargers?

You're right, I got confused and must be missing something because they clearly say the 1000v connector is backward compatible.

 

[TunaBug]

Claiming compatibility with plug&charge sort of incorporates all of the CCS spec, so that seems like an effective way of doing it...

But ...

They support plug&charge? I don't think the cars do yet. We don't have adapters to use to test the charging equipment either, but I've not seen anyone claiming P&C works in europe.

Isn't EVgo's "Autocharge+" just plug & charge? If so, then yes Tesla supports it. I set it up this morning, and less than an hour ago plugged in my M3 and watched the session automagically start.

And I read a couple more posts and discoverred right here that Autocharge is not Plug & Charge.

 

[stopcrazypp]

But why would carmakers these use CCS/PLC? Why wouldn't Tesla just open up the well known and well test CAN-based messages to other vendors?

To be clear, I'm talking primarily about charger manufacturers. This allows them to just add a cable to their chargers without having to spend time trying to add in another protocol (and the associated hardware chips to support CAN instead of PLC).

The advantage to encouraging adoption should be obvious. Tesla did similar to EvGo by providing them extended cables for their CHAdeMO adapter boxes.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Because it's a half-assed approach. These future EVs want access to existing Tesla Superchargers that use the NACS standard with CAN-bus.

Just using the connector means the new EVs will only talk to CCS compatible Tesla Superchargers (i.e V4) which I don't know if true of the old V1/V2/V3 hardware.,

As others point out, in Europe the older supercharger hardware already supports both. Tesla has suggested to the Biden admin that they plan to open their network to CCS cars, so that means they have to add CCS support anyways. There is a rumored magic dock that will allow CCS cars to charge at superchargers.

All cars from Tesla going forward is already supporting CCS and they have plans to eventually offer a retrofit to older cars that don't, so I think this is just the logical step forward.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Hypothetically (I can't stress that word enough), if Tesla has been in talks with EA, EVgo, ChargePoint, etc., with the goal of adding NACS cables to these third-party chargers, then it's possible that those negotiations led Tesla to open up the NACS details. These third-party providers would, after all, want to be able to add these connectors without paying kickbacks to Tesla for its IP and without agreeing to the "poison pills" Tesla has attached to its previous offers of opening up its IP. By this analysis (or speculation), Tesla is opening up the NACS designs now because it's only now that EVs have become common enough that interoperability between all brands and charging networks is becoming a game with high enough stakes for the various parties to come together.

Evgo already did a deal with Tesla with the CHAdeMO adapter boxes with extended cables. But I agree for adding Tesla cables to the chargers themselves, the charger manufacturers likely balked at Tesla's poison pill provision for patents. This breaks down that barrier.

Cynics will also say that as long as another vehicle manufacturer adopts this (Aptera is pretty enthusiastic about it) this can open the door to qualifying for federal subsidizes without being restricted to CCS.

 

[voxel]

As others point out, in Europe the older supercharger hardware already supports both. Tesla has suggested to the Biden admin that they plan to open their network to CCS cars, so that means they have to add CCS support anyways. There is a rumored magic dock that will allow CCS cars to charge at superchargers.

All cars from Tesla going forward is already supporting CCS and they have plans to eventually offer a retrofit to older cars that don't, so I think this is just the logical step forward.

3 and Y have CCS support since early is 2021 but don’t know about the others like the S and X. CCS is a fallback to me… not the primary connector + protocol.

EVGo support as you mentioned was probably not complicated because CHAdeMO and Tesla are similar.

I argue there are 1500 Tesla Supercharger stalls in the US that probably don’t have CCS support. New EVs can tap into that by using NCAS and the Tesla protocol.

 

[ucmndd]

… and the inevitable stupidity of the American market duopoly is now guaranteed in perpetuity.