Tesla forced an update of my P85D to 2019.16.2

[AWDtsla]

I've done AP for thousands of miles cross country before. Some roads are so straight for miles that my car will still nag even with my hands on the wheel. I usually have to nudge the wheel slightly to stop it. It's also why I've kept my car in 2018.14 firmware, because I don't want more frequent nagging when I'm doing my cross-country autopiloting.

Doesn't even have to be straight. Properly banked roads require almost no input even when curved.

There's about 9 ways to get rid of nags, I'm not personally concerned about nags at this point. What I can't do is rewrite the whole UI to not be dumb.

 

[whitex]

Practically impossible? A good driver wouldn't be applying torque, period. Good doesn't mean someone who obeys the rules, it means someone who can drive it effectively around a racetrack. Applying torque scrubs off speed, and reduces traction over bumps. Minimum effective input is what you want.

There's nothing wrong with his car or my car.

When you are holding the wheel with two hands and applying zero torque, when AP moves the wheel, unless you match the AP movement down to a millisecond, you are applying torque to the wheel. Same if the wheel turns due to road curvature. If you applying absolutely zero torque, thay means you are matching AP move for move, so you really don't need the AP.

 

[whitex]

Doesn't even have to be straight. Properly banked roads require almost no input even when curved.

There's about 9 ways to get rid of nags, I'm not personally concerned about nags at this point. What I can't do is rewrite the whole UI to not be dumb.

I've yet to have a nag with 2 hands on the wheel. Maybe my car is set to be more sensitive? Or maybe the plus suspension moves the steering wheel enough so there is always torque against my hands?

 

[whitex]

Doesn't even have to be straight. Properly banked roads require almost no input even when curved.

Exactly, the road turns the wheel for you, and the steering wheel pushes on your hands on the wheel, hence torque is sensed.

 

[trm2]

I just got a notification that a software update will be auto installed later tonight. On my iPhone (for iOS 12.3.1). So I will say advanced notice IS POSSIBLE. Are you listening Tesla?

 

[HankLloydRight]

I just got a notification that a software update will be auto installed later tonight. On my iPhone (for iOS 12.3.1). So I will say advanced notice IS POSSIBLE. Are you listening Tesla?

Interesting. Since I had a pre-app-update firmware version on my car, perhaps they sent this new auto-install notice, but my car couldn't hear it, and then notify the app through the API. I'm definitely not sure how that works or what talks to what to send an app notification, but I definitely did not get a forced update notification on the app.

 

[trm2]

Interesting. Since I had a pre-app-update firmware version on my car, perhaps they sent this new auto-install notice, but my car couldn't hear it, and then notify the app through the API. I'm definitely not sure how that works or what talks to what to send an app notification, but I definitely did not get a forced update notification on the app.

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. The update notice I got on my iPhone was that my iPhone was going to update later tonight. This had nothing to do with my Model S. I was just saying that it is possible to inform people that an update will happen - even if it is a forced update.

With my Model S, I updated to 2018.32.4 last August or September, whenever it was. As much as I don't wan't V9 (and I'm NOT complaining) I haven't really even had the chance. I got an update notice once in November when I had to "X out of" the update because I didn't have the time, I had to drive the car at that moment. I haven't had a notice to update since. I even added AP/FSD in March, but no updates for me.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Oops! Ok, now I see. thanks.

 

[wk057]

The only people that have a valid claim are people who purchased AP prior to Tesla implementing their "both hands on the wheel at all times" policy, no?

Oh, you mean like nearly everyone with an AP1 car? Where they advertised "hands free onramp to offramp" highway driving? lol

I see your point, but depends how you frame it. Imagine the car would pre-load maps every morning based on some learned routine - the car knows you drive very day to work, so it will update the maps for just that. Now, if that updating wears out the storage, or simply there is a bad data in the maps causing the car computer to crash (actually happened with Tesla once), do you consider that car breaking down, or is that Tesla "removing and replacing components without your permission"? You might say "I want an option to reject map loading", ok, but then Tesla will not engage AP because the computer sees an HD map out of date, and possibly no map will even display since you said they can't load it from the internet and the car didn't come with any maps, and doesn't have sufficient storage to store entire USA map.

A simpler example would be a car automatically rebooting every night to clear memory leak issues and such. Now what if one of those reboots killed the car (boot sector is corrupt)? You could argue you could have driven it for few more days before you manually rebooted the car, so the car would break on your schedule instead of overnight, but still, it's just the car breaking down.

So, if you consider auto-update as part of normal operation, i.e. you purchased a dynamic system, then an update disabling the car is just a car malfunctioning.

All this said, I personally don't want this kind of dynamic product, unless all of these are met:

1. the updates are in the background, really fast (2 minutes max), or scheduled by me
2. the updates don't change the car functionality - so bug fixes, safety and security only
3. updates are thoroughly tested

Maybe it's just me, only time will tell if this Tesla model of selling unfinished product and delivering over time will be preferred by people over the traditional model of finishing the design and test of a product before selling it.

None of what you note above applies. Every example you've given is something that the owner would have consented to, is aware of, etc in advance. Forcing updates without the owner knowing is still not remotely equatable to anything you note above.

 

[sublimejackman]

Hey sublime, still waiting for you to enlighten us poor folk, that you can't believe are so ignorant on the law. If you missed the question, this is it.

So now that I have provided you with what my contract says, and you are such a legal genius, show me the code section that states that one party, to a two party contract, can unilaterally change the terms of the contract, through subsequent policy changes, or by any other means. I await your informative counsel.

Still waiting.

I said earlier as I am saying now, I have the unlimited supercharging from a referral in late 2017. That supercharging is not transferable to the next owner. I asked you if yours was different and it sounds like it is. I never said in all cases, I made sure to constrain my statement to my personal experience. I have no documentation saying anything about supercharging except that blurb on the website and the terms of service.

Also my point was limited to the context of this thread. If Tesla thinks that there is safer software and that older software could potentially cause a problem while supercharging, not only do they have the right, but an obligation to not allow cars to supercharge without updating. The same goes with V3 superchargers. Those charges may not (I don't know) be compatible with V7 or V8 or 2019.12. So would you say Tesla is in breach of contract if you can't use those superchargers? I doubt it. But again, I don't have a contract mentioning unlimited supercharging, just a blurb on my Tesla page.

 

[hill]

I think something people are completely missing with Tesla's updates is that installing an update makes the car completely unusable while the update is in progress, and no way to abort it or otherwise use the vehicle .....snip......

conversely (& who knows whether things have changed over the past year) we found out if you give permission for and update to begin, then start driving for 20 minutes or so, it caused our model X to be incapable of updating. We had to take it in to the SC to have them do the update.
.

 

[sorka]

When you are holding the wheel with two hands and applying zero torque, when AP moves the wheel, unless you match the AP movement down to a millisecond, you are applying torque to the wheel. Same if the wheel turns due to road curvature. If you applying absolutely zero torque, thay means you are matching AP move for move, so you really don't need the AP.

AP on my car requires a tug about every 20 to 30 seconds. Simply holding with my hands is not enough. Even when the car is winding gradual s turns on the freeway, it's not enough for AP to think I have my hands on the wheels so I get the flash of what at bottom in a very short period unless I tug at it. Half the time, the tug is enough to kick it out of auto pilot.

 

[sorka]

I said earlier as I am saying now, I have the unlimited supercharging from a referral in late 2017. That supercharging is not transferable to the next owner.

Tesla has unlimited supercharging that vanishes when you sell the car? I've not yet heard of this. Can you share where/how this is documented?

 

[St Charles]

Tesla has unlimited supercharging that vanishes when you sell the car? I've not yet heard of this. Can you share where/how this is documented?

There was a policy change in early 2017 where unlimited supercharging became tied to 1st owner only. This change only applied to new car sales after the announcement.

 

[whitex]

AP on my car requires a tug about every 20 to 30 seconds. Simply holding with my hands is not enough. Even when the car is winding gradual s turns on the freeway, it's not enough for AP to think I have my hands on the wheels so I get the flash of what at bottom in a very short period unless I tug at it. Half the time, the tug is enough to kick it out of auto pilot.

Something sounds wrong. Honestly, I never get a warning when using AP1 with both hands on the wheel (I do when I have no hands on the wheel). Maybe my car is just lucky somehow, or Tesla maybe never calibrates this torque sensor, or maybe this particular sensor simply cannot be calibrated as its original purpose was solely to disengage the AP, so it whoever selected this part might not have been thinking it needs to detect anything but a hard tug.

 

[neroden]

Well, they've really stepped to far this time. I am livid.

I've been actively rejecting V9.0 updates to my car since V8.1-2018.18. The last time my car had an update was over a year ago (see EV-FW info below).

But overnight my car got updated.. and much to my horror, shock, and surprise this morning when got in the car, I was greeted with the standard update notice and V9.

Keep in mind that I got home with 11% charge and forgot to plug-in. And my car has not connected to Wi-fi in over a year.

Now I'm not going to go into all "entitled" mode and say I'm going to sue Tesla or start a class-action lawsuit or assault the local service center to roll it back. Because (a) I'm not that kind of person, and (2), I know it's pointless.

Seriously, I would love to get in on a class action lawsuit with you. I am that kind of person, and it would definitely work. We'd win. Really no question. Most likely, Tesla would actually sit down and fix the problems, once the federal lawsuit got their attention; if they didn't, well, I would happily take the monetary compensation for the damage they did to my car and their warranty violations, since I deserve it.

I've just been far too busy to be the lead plaintiff. I'd provide as much support and documentation as I could, though. If someone else starts such a lawsuit, I want in on it and I will help.

Disclosure: very long TSLA. But they need to be woken up about this crap.

 

[sorka]

Something sounds wrong. Honestly, I never get a warning when using AP1 with both hands on the wheel (I do when I have no hands on the wheel). Maybe my car is just lucky somehow, or Tesla maybe never calibrates this torque sensor, or maybe this particular sensor simply cannot be calibrated as its original purpose was solely to disengage the AP, so it whoever selected this part might not have been thinking it needs to detect anything but a hard tug.

Not just me. It's been mentioned at least dozens of times in other threads by others.

 

[neroden]

They'll point to the fact that this was a mandatory public safety update, game over. The fact that they don't have safety updates for older versions of the software is just a crappy product feature which you may not like (I don't) but not a defect.

Nope. Tesla owes damages based on removing functionality (on the UI) which was present when the car was delivered, and failing to repair that UI functionality under warranty.

They can do safety updates, but there's nothing requiring them to break other stuff when they do it. And they did break other stuff. Not acceptable. Leads to an actionable claim for failure to comply with the warranty.

 

[neroden]

I wonder if those charge port errors were noticed at Tesla, and that's what triggered the unsolicited autoinstall of v9.

Sorry to read this. I'm dreading the day when they do the same thing to my Model S, since its older hardware is currently performing just fine on v8. It ought to tell Tesla something when the same Model S and X customers who were most excited about changes and getting the latest updates as soon as they came out (heck, even driving by the service center so the geofencing would trigger an update) now avoid them like the plague because of the well-documented performance and functionality regressions.

Hopefully the recent critique of v9's usability by a recognized team of experts in UI design has been read by the right people, and not just dismissed out of hand. Still trust that this will turn around in the next major release.

Please go to the shareholder meeting and raise these questions. I just can't this year.

I am sure this will not turn around until either (a) Tesla gets sued, (b) Tesla gets embarassed about this in the media, or (c) Musk hears about it personally from people who own a lot of shares. I'd love to do any of them, but I am very busy with medical issues.

 

[neroden]

If only there was a way, like paying attention, that could override that.

Runs out checks car. Still on V8, guess I’ll spend this evening lining my garage with aluminum foil.

I did the same thing, though I didn't line my garage with aluminum foil.