Tesla hurt their own profits by putting wimpy chargers in 3's.

[sorka]

That is another good reason
So that being the case, a slower onboard charger in the smaller battery pack would have no affect on you purchase decision?

Yes, because there are still going to times when I'm leaving for a long trip and have the car depleted. For instance, we just got back from Santa Cruz with 10% left a few Sundays ago. My wife had to take off to her parents house that night which is in Orosi. Being able to charge quickly up to 90% was awesome. Yes, the M3-310 will charge more miles per minute than 32 amps on my P85D, but my wife is always gong to charge to 90% no matter what on a medium long trip like that because she's never sure when she'll need the extra. She can't charge at her parent's easily and is already going to have to charge in Fresno on the way back some. Now on the way back, when she's just coming straight home, she knows to charge just enough to get home.

 

[bonnie]

1245 posts and you don't know the difference between a charger and an EVSE? Maybe instead of wasting time looking up other peoples posts you could do a little self education.

So your contribution to the conversation is to chastise a respected forum member. Bravo.

 

[sorka]

I'm still slightly confused. Seems like this works even with a standard range Model 3 and it's 32A charger.

You can charge at work, so you leave there with ~220 miles range. You have a 126 mile commute home. You arrive with 90+ miles range.

You plug in for the 2.5 hours you are used. That adds 75 miles for a total of 165. The distance from Merced to Pinecrest is ~85 miles. Even allowing for elevation change that would seem doable.

If all of the above is cutting it too close, you hit one of the Superchargers on your way home from work so you arrive at home with even greater than 90 miles..

Yes, see McRat's response earlier.

But the bottom line is I'm never going to charge to less than 90% when leaving on a medium long trip even if the car has more range at 90% than my current car.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

For $35K they are lucky that got a charger at all

 

[MXWing]

1245 posts and you don't know the difference between a charger and an EVSE? Maybe instead of wasting time looking up other peoples posts you could do a little self education.

You missed another detail on my post.

It's called

"The point"

If there is a 200 dollar spread on the EVSE between amperages - what's the spread on the onboard chargers? More than $20?

 

[Zythryn]

Yes, because there are still going to times when I'm leaving for a long trip and have the car depleted. For instance, we just got back from Santa Cruz with 10% left a few Sundays ago. My wife had to take off to her parents house that night which is in Orosi. Being able to charge quickly up to 90% was awesome. Yes, the M3-310 will charge more miles per minute than 32 amps on my P85D, but my wife is always gong to charge to 90% no matter what on a medium long trip like that because she's never sure when she'll need the extra. She can't charge at her parent's easily and is already going to have to charge in Fresno on the way back some. Now on the way back, when she's just coming straight home, she knows to charge just enough to get home.

I think I am misunderstanding something here. Please correct me where I am wrong.
You stated that the slower charging would be a non-starter for you.
You would not be buying the shorter range 3, which is the one with the slower charger.
The longer range 3 has a charger faster than your current car's charger.

I don't see an issue here??

 

[MXWing]

For $35K they are lucky that got a charger at all

Your point is funnier than what I think people will give you credit for.

My two volts only came with 110 Volt chargers. MSRP higher than basic Model 3.

No one called out GM, gouging their customers and shooting their own profits for being cheap even though those can handle 240.

Makes me wonder know what capacity chargers came with the Leaf, Bolts etc.

 

[Skotty]

Tesla pwned themselves this time. By "saving money" and "cutting costs", they chose to put a weaksauce, slow, wimpy, teeny tiny little 32 amp charger in the base 3, and an ok-but-not-much-better 48 amp in the big battery 3's.

Every single 3 ever made, big battery or not, should have the full size 72 amp Model S charger, or even the old style 80 amp dual chargers.

And here is why.

HPWC sales, $550 each. There is absolutely no reason for 455,000 3 owners to buy an HPWC now, a NEMA 14-50 is enough (Ok, I know the 48 amp charger could use the HPWC a little, but there's not $550 worth of gain).

So Tesla, are you happy now? I know not everyone would have bought an HPWC for their 3, but if only TEN PERCENT did, that is 25 million in lost sales. You could have had it. You wanted to cheap out on us with pathetic chargers. Good job.

I use a 32 amp J1772 charger for my S and am entirely satisfied with it. And a Model 3 will charge up more miles per hour than an S because it is more efficient per mile. Some might prefer higher charging capability, but 32 amp is sufficient.

There is still reason to buy an HPWC, so that you are not using a mobile charger in a non-mobile scenario. I like being able to keep my mobile charger in the car, using a separate charger for home charging. Someone could use a 2nd mobile charger instead of an HPWC, but the HPWC still has it's advantages that make it a compelling choice (no adapters, can be hard wired, can share power with other HPWCs).

I hear your complaint, but what I'm arguing here is that what they are doing is sufficient and probably saves on cost and reduces chance of problems that can occur more frequently with higher amperage charging.

 

[az erik]

For $35K they are lucky that got a charger at all

This is true. I had to buy my charger, otherwise a day to charge a 23kw battery would kinda suck.
That said I don't think Tesla would sell as many, as easily if it took 3 days to charge from a wall 110. Explaining chargers to new buyers is hard enough. Explaining they have to charge for days would be worse than range anxiety.

 

[TexasEV]

I use a 32 amp J1772 charger for my S and am entirely satisfied with it. And a Model 3 will charge up more miles per hour than an S because it is more efficient per mile. Some might prefer higher charging capability, but 32 amp is sufficient.

There is still reason to buy an HPWC, so that you are not using a mobile charger in a non-mobile scenario. I like being able to keep my mobile charger in the car, using a separate charger for home charging. Someone could use a 2nd mobile charger instead of an HPWC, but the HPWC still has it's advantages that make it a compelling choice (no adapters, can be hard wired, can share power with other HPWCs).

Once again, you may be charging at 32A but the charger is IN THE CAR and is 40A. The J1772 unit is an EVSE not a charger.

The "mobile" in UMC is a capability, not a requirement. Most use comes in what you call non-mobile sceranios, keeping it plugged into the garage outlet and only taking it in the car for out of town trips.

 

[sorka]

The longer range 3 has a charger faster than your current car's charger.

80 amps vs 32 amps. Even if you give a slight discount for wh / mile efficiency to the 3 it's still twice as slow mile per mile.

 

[electracity]

Tesla may have sized the model 3 chargers to their maximum conservative daily C rate.

 

[Zythryn]

80 amps vs 32 amps. Even if you give a slight discount for wh / mile efficiency to the 3 it's still twice as slow mile per mile.

Aha, thank you, that was the piece I misunderstood.
So even the longer range would be slower than the onboard charger you currently have.

I wonder if, once they have scaled up production, they will offer the long range Model 3 with a faster charger as an option.

 

[gregincal]

80 amps vs 32 amps. Even if you give a slight discount for wh / mile efficiency to the 3 it's still twice as slow mile per mile.

The charger in the long range 3 is reportedly 48 amps (it's at least 40 amps). The short range 3 has a 32 amp charger. Since the base X also has a 48 amp charger it's definitely not fair to compare an upgraded X against a base 3.

 

[cwerdna]

His point is that Clipper Creek sells EVSE's (analogous to a Tesla HPWC). The chargers being discussed are in the car.

As such, the poster who mentioned the $200 difference in the Clipper Creek EVSE models isn't really making a point germane to this discussion. The components in a charger are significantly more involved than a EVSE.

I've had to correct people on terminology and distinguishing between the EVSE and car's on-board charger countless times at MNL.

I often point them to Talk to me about charging/EVSE and charging stations - Page 2 - My Nissan Leaf Forum.

I later discovered Clipper Creek has more elegantly described the limiting factors at articles like Three Things Determine EV Charge Time

There are similar variables that apply when determining the amount of time to charge an electric vehicle. Determining the charge time for your BEV (battery electric vehicle) or PHEV (plug-in hybrid electric vehicle) is simple with 3 key pieces of information:

1. Vehicle Acceptance Rate (aka the car’s charger, in kW)
2. Vehicle Battery Capacity (in kWh)
3. Charging Station Delivery Rate (aka the stations’ max output capacity, in kW)

Sometimes I also point them to http://www.sae.org/smartgrid/chargingprimer.pdf and Basics of SAE J1772 : OpenEVSE Support, as well.

It really irks me when some people who actually know the difference and know better continue to intentionally use the wrong terminology (e.g. they keep saying charger when referring to an L1 or L2 EVSE).

 

[Maaz]

I have never needed anything more than 32 amps honestly. It'll be just fine.

 

[cwerdna]

Your point is funnier than what I think people will give you credit for.

My two volts only came with 110 Volt chargers. MSRP higher than basic Model 3.

No one called out GM, gouging their customers and shooting their own profits for being cheap even though those can handle 240.

Makes me wonder know what capacity chargers came with the Leaf, Bolts etc.

No. Your Volt came with an on-board charger that could handle 120, 208 and 240 volts (not sure if it can much outside that range e.g. from 100 volts to 277). GM refers to their OBCs as 3.3 kW on gen 1 Volt and 3.6 kW on gen 2.

The plastic thing with a NEMA 5-15 plug attached to a short cord, a plastic housing and then a much longer cable with J1772 handle on the other end is NOT a charger. That is a level 1 EVSE.

Those other things that I bolded that you're referring to are also EVSEs. Model S/X Mobile Connector Bundle is also an EVSE, NOT a charger. This guy is capable of level 1 and 2, depending on which adapter you attach.

For level 1 and 2 AC charging over J1772, the external unit is an EVSE, basically a smart safety switch. The charger is on-board the car. In the case of the Leaf, it's in the back on an '11 and '12 (A peek at the Leaf's Charger - My Nissan Leaf Forum) but moved to the front, under the hood of '13+ Leafs (see http://sfbayleafs.org/news/2013/01/2013-nissan-leaf-product-highlights/attachment/13leafproduct8/ from http://sfbayleafs.org/news/2013/01/2013-nissan-leaf-product-highlights/).

US Leafs come with a level 1 120 volt, 12 amp EVSE, output max is 1.44 kW.

US Leafs have on-board chargers with max output to battery ranging between 3.6 kW to 6.6 kW, depending on model year and equipment. Nissan's been sloppy with what numbers (sometimes mixing max from the wall vs. max output to battery) they've used. They've used numbers for OBC wattage like 3.3, 3.6 and 6.6 kW.

6.6 kw charger on 2013 S model. - Page 4 - My Nissan Leaf Forum has a guy swapping his "3.6 kW" OBC on his S trim Leaf (that's what the base S comes with) with the "6.6 kW" version.

Range issues - Page 2 - My Nissan Leaf Forum may help.

 

[Phillip L]

I think people have fixated on home charging where faster than 32 amp charging really is of limited concern. The real issue was distance travel.

I had dual chargers put into my Model S in 2015 when I purchased it because I knew I was going to be making frequent trips to Nova Scotia where there were not any Superchargers or other fast DC chargers beyond Drummondville, QC at the time. That 80 amp charging capacity saved me many hours of charging time for those last 1100 km of driving, and were very much worth it to me. Now there are fast DC chargers available for that trip and will rarely get a boost from having dual 40 amp chargers. I suspect that across North America, there are just fewer and fewer spots where faster, non-DC charging, is going to be an issue, especially if Tesla does indeed expand the SC network as much as they say.

So, maybe the originator of this thread may have had a point if this were 2015, but now it is a non-issue.

 

[MXWing]

I think people have fixated on home charging where faster than 32 amp charging really is of limited concern. The real issue was distance travel.

I had dual chargers put into my Model S in 2015 when I purchased it because I knew I was going to be making frequent trips to Nova Scotia where there were not any Superchargers or other fast DC chargers beyond Drummondville, QC at the time. That 80 amp charging capacity saved me many hours of charging time for those last 1100 km of driving, and were very much worth it to me. Now there are fast DC chargers available for that trip and will rarely get a boost from having dual 40 amp chargers. I suspect that across North America, there are just fewer and fewer spots where faster, non-DC charging, is going to be an issue, especially if Tesla does indeed expand the SC network as much as they say.

So, maybe the originator of this thread may have had a point if this were 2015, but now it is a non-issue.

Only the OP and people who have never owned an EV is fixated on charging amps in your garage.

They forget that humans tend to have a period of time where they sleep and miss the passage of time when charging happens.

A good percentage of the population can charge their Model 3 on 1.5 amps and be fine.

 

[b team]

Tesla pwned themselves this time. By "saving money" and "cutting costs", they chose to put a weaksauce, slow, wimpy, teeny tiny little 32 amp charger in the base 3, and an ok-but-not-much-better 48 amp in the big battery 3's.

Every single 3 ever made, big battery or not, should have the full size 72 amp Model S charger, or even the old style 80 amp dual chargers.

And here is why.

HPWC sales, $550 each. There is absolutely no reason for 455,000 3 owners to buy an HPWC now, a NEMA 14-50 is enough (Ok, I know the 48 amp charger could use the HPWC a little, but there's not $550 worth of gain).

So Tesla, are you happy now? I know not everyone would have bought an HPWC for their 3, but if only TEN PERCENT did, that is 25 million in lost sales. You could have had it. You wanted to cheap out on us with pathetic chargers. Good job.

I use a 120 for my S and find it adequate. We really need to put a limit on abusers starting threads to prevent this forum from being ruined.