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Tesla infotainment system upgradeable from MCU1 to MCU2
- Thread starter MurrayJimW
- Start date
⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️
Village Idiot
I've never heard of this. So if I don't use streaming, will my eMMC last a lot longer? What about streaming from my phone, via Bluetooth?
Here's even a better one. How frequently are you getting software updates? Those patch files for cid and APE (which downloads both patch files to mcu) are several hundred MB each any every software update. Those write cycles are probably the largest regular contributor of large block writes to the emmc.
Just keep in mind that modern PC's all use SSD's, similar technology really. When I sit here and look at the HD light it only blinks once every 10 seconds or so because the PC is correctly doing everything in RAM and not hammering the SSD all the time.
It was pointed out by Tesla hackers that Tesla need to log to RAM rather than directly to the eMMC. That way they only need to write to the eMMC when something critical in those logs needs to be saved.
I don't how many of you are into software/hardware...but...there is a reason Tesla logs to eMMC instead of memory.
Volatile vs Non-Volatile storage...
It doesn't matter if it's critical/important/whatever or not. Tesla needs to make sure that the data is on non-volatile storage because everything goes back to the "mothership"...but...and this is important...network connections are unpredictable and certainly not real-time. It's gotta be stored somewhere where it'll be persisted, even if the car shuts down, crashes and burns, whatever.
Has to be there.
Volatile vs Non-Volatile storage...
It doesn't matter if it's critical/important/whatever or not. Tesla needs to make sure that the data is on non-volatile storage because everything goes back to the "mothership"...but...and this is important...network connections are unpredictable and certainly not real-time. It's gotta be stored somewhere where it'll be persisted, even if the car shuts down, crashes and burns, whatever.
Has to be there.
not everything.
True they periodically request logs from cars, but normally only when you have a service complaint or something in the car triggered their attention.
whitex
Well-Known Member
And in cases like this they should have planned for it by making it a separate and removable SD card, so that when it wears out, you just pop a new one it. This SD card would be for logs and nothing else. If confidentiality is an issue, it could use encryption.
Kinda like why wiper blades being removable, so you can replace them without having to replace the wipers, motors and maybe even windshield (if they were all permanently fused together). Wearable parts should be easily serviceable, log storage included (not hard to calculate MTBF for emmc).
Not disagreeing with you guys at all.
The "soldered on" eMMC storage is...well...in hindsight, a somewhat bad decision. However (and don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Tesla at all) there are many many reasons why you don't want it to be removable, encryption or not. And supply chains are very long toothed...they take a while to change.
We're talking 5-7 year old storage technology...which has changed dramatically since then. Solid State storage has grown qualitatively and quantitatively by leaps and bounds since then. 5-7 years ago...a 64GB SSD was ~$200, today it is...well..peanuts. Based on my background/experience, all I can say is, is that it was most probably a compromise, cost vs longevity. They probably did NOT expect to be logging as much.
That said, I'm almost 100% certain there will be an upgrade path for MCU1. In the grand scheme of things, upgrading a "computer" (and it IS a computer) to a newer version is a piece of cake. They just haven't made a priority and unless they do, or they are forced to, it is what it is.
The "soldered on" eMMC storage is...well...in hindsight, a somewhat bad decision. However (and don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Tesla at all) there are many many reasons why you don't want it to be removable, encryption or not. And supply chains are very long toothed...they take a while to change.
We're talking 5-7 year old storage technology...which has changed dramatically since then. Solid State storage has grown qualitatively and quantitatively by leaps and bounds since then. 5-7 years ago...a 64GB SSD was ~$200, today it is...well..peanuts. Based on my background/experience, all I can say is, is that it was most probably a compromise, cost vs longevity. They probably did NOT expect to be logging as much.
That said, I'm almost 100% certain there will be an upgrade path for MCU1. In the grand scheme of things, upgrading a "computer" (and it IS a computer) to a newer version is a piece of cake. They just haven't made a priority and unless they do, or they are forced to, it is what it is.
whitex
Well-Known Member
What are those reasons? What problems do you see with a soldered EMMC for program code and data, removable SD for logs. When SD dies, pop a new one in, when detected as new, format it with encrypted filesystem.
Think of it this way. Does an iPhone have removable storage? No. Is it soldered on? Yes.
Apple could quite possibly have made the iPhone storage removable, negating the need for deciding upfront how much storage you need, but they didn't. The physical footprint of removable storage is much much larger than onboard/soldered on. Now, in an iPhone that makes sense, in the Tesla MCU, most probably not. However, the tamper risk is WAY higher for a Tesla MCU than it is for an iPhone.
And to your point about removable SD for logs, if it's removable, by definition, somebody could remove it and deny the data to Tesla. Like I said, I can bet that it was a compromise based on the tech available at the time (keeping supply chains in mind, and their long cycles) vs cost vs longevity vs security vs liability (by not having that data) etc.
whitex
Well-Known Member
Let's not buy into Apple fanboy explanation how Apple did this for the user benefit. iPhone doesn't support removable storage in order to make money, no other reason. Plenty of Android phones, including premium phones in the same category as iPhone, support removable storage without any issues. It's a cash generator for Apple to upsell storage up front, and to force customers who need more in the future to a new phone rather than a new microSD card.
Are you saying Tesla's is like Apple and is also using this to generate income? In each car's lifetime the MCU EMMC will probably fail at least twice on average, they get to charge $2,200 to give you a refurb one, while they take your old one, pay $200 or less in refurb fees ($100 in BGA rework, $10 for EMMC chip, few bucks to clean and repackage). So ~$4,000 profit per average car. That would be better than iPhone.
Removable doesn't have to mean user removable, but a simple task to Tesla service to do (say a $50 fix including labor when it dies - it would also ensure that only Tesla approved SD cards are used). If you're willing to open you car up, you can deny Tesla logs already, so this would simply just be a one more way, but why? Encryption would prevent anyone from reading the logs (breaking it would require more effort than dumping the EMMC today).
I wonder what eMMC chip Tesla puts in the refurb units... Is it the same small eMMC or are they putting in a larger one that will last much longer now?
Sadly, I think we all know the answer...
How much qualification testing would be required to change the part? Not for one of us end users that did it on the side, but for Tesla?
QFT
Heaven forbid the logs of .1 degree temperature changes fall into the wrong hands...
geoffmanley
Member
What is it soldered onto? If the screen is replaced, does that include any actual computer parts?
It's soldered onto the mainboard. The screen and mainboard are separate components of the MCU (in the same housing)
dark cloud
Active Member
The easy solution for the emmc is to PROACTIVELY replace the chip with a larger capacity chip. Could easily add 10 years to the MCU if done properly.
S100D
Member
A refurbished MCU1 might be replacing a screen with yellow edges and not replacing the eMMC chip.same crap
Can you imagine paying thousands of dollars for a refurbished MCU1 and the eMMC chip dies within a few weeks. Yes it is under warranty but there is no guarantee that the next one you get had the eMMC replaced.
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