Tesla is losing me

[ReddyLeaf]

Yes, Tesla has tons of problems. Please feel free to PM when you’re ready to trade straight across for my 40-mi 2011 Leaf. I’ve never had any problems with it.

 

[gnuarm]

There is no direct competitor to Tesla and there aren't any viable ones for a long time. The closest one is the Porsche Taycan, and that's not a mass-market everyday driver car like the Model 3. The I-Pace has less efficency and less range than a Model X 75 and lacks a fast charging network. The Nissan Leaf has batteries that degrade in under 5 years. The Chevy Volt has been abandoned by GM, the Bolt is only sold in certain states and theres a waitlist in Canada because GM isn't interested in producing a large quantity of the vehicles. So lets not kid ourselves, Tesla is riding solo for the foreseeable future in EVs. And they have a massive lead.

Not the foreseeable future really. We can all foresee nearly every car maker having multiple models on the road by 2025 and likely much earlier. Several have stated they will have models out by 2022 and even 2020. Unlike Tesla they have a bit more credibility to the dates they project mostly because they are beholding to their investors.

The Volt is a hybrid and GM is bailing on it because it was a transition vehicle, not an end goal. I don't know why GM isn't selling more Bolts. Maybe because of lack of interest which I would chalk up to a lack of charging facilities. Do you really thing GM has no will to make EVs? Lol!

The only real lead Tesla has is in charging. While the other companies don't have many models on the road, they have plans and when those plans hit the road, poof! Tesla's lead in autos will have evaporated. The only lead they can maintain is to push ahead with the Supercharger network to make charging Teslas a total non-issue, not the "planning required, know where your stops are, do I have enough range to reach that charger or do I need to stop here for 15 minutes first" mode of charging. A charger every 25 miles rather than 125 miles. If they can achieve that, it will be an insurmountable lead for over 5 years, maybe 10. But how likely is it that Tesla can do that as a single small company, while all the others pull together to construct a competing network that only has to pull within range, not outstrip Tesla's network? We will see.

BINGO. Don't like the fart app, don't use it. lol. Not sure how it interferes with the daily operation of the car? Some people just like to whine incessantly.

Yes, so much whining about people who think all efforts should be on fixing unpleasant bugs rather than adding totally frivolous apps.

Just like Tesla can't censor Musk's tweets, they can't seem to avoid image faux pas.

Why is this such a big deal for some people? once you receive your car, who the freak cares?

Really? Having a Tesla is enough? It doesn't need to work?

And for the record, my DS always replied to my emails within 24 hours or voicemails on the same day. Anytime my car has been in a service center (only twice in 3 years), they've kept me up to date with constant text communication directly with the people working on the car.

Your mileage may vary....

 

[gnuarm]

There are a number of inaccuracies in your post, you may want to check your facts.

As I said above, there is no "Tesla-Killer" yet. At same time, the competition is not enjoying Tesla eating their lunch,

Tesla isn't eating anyone's lunch. I don't think they are even eating anyone's appetizer. Tesla is a new company, barely going and the entire production is about as many cars as GM is makes in one of the plants they are closing. I guess they are eating the after dinner mint perhaps.

and are working on it. I am not so sure about the massive lead you are talking about - we all need to fast forward few years to see if the gaps remains constant or not. I would argue that the first attempts at EVs from Jaguar, Audi and Merc, Kia / Hyundai are better executed than the first model S were in the early days. There is catch-up to do, but perhaps less than you make of it. And I am sure the range of their first EVs will slowly go up as they refine the drivetrain.

While Tesla was working to make their luxury cars the fastest production models in the world, GM was honing the design of their Volt which I am told is a pretty good car for a hybrid. That experience will be used in the electric cars they make going forward along with what they've learned with the Bolt, just as Tesla is honing the full self driving software with the feedback they are getting from auto pilot. I'd never count out the power houses just because they haven't brought out EV models before there is a charging network... which is being built as we speak... er, write.

Of course Taycan is not for the masses - neither is model S. Somehow I have the feeling that some model S owners will go back to other manufacturers once there is something to cross-shop. Last time I went to my Tesla SC / store (only one in MN), they looked overwhelmed with deliveries, and I was simply ignored. It's OK, I can understand that, but it does not make you feel loved or welcome. This, the interior quality, and the communications issues are the main reason why I have a deposit on a Taycan rather than on a model S to replace my car when the lease expires. Our current model 3 is great, but if the Audi etron GT was available today I would consider it a strong competitor.

The model S and X as well as the 3 are awesome cars. But if GM or anyone else can produce a 300 mile range EV for $30,000 instead of $35,000 which Tesla has yet to do, they will get so much more market share it won't be funny. Tesla is king of the road with no real competition. But that competition is coming. Give it until 2023, 2024 or maybe 2025 at the latest. It is all contingent on having adequate charging facilities in place. Until then the numbers will be weak supplying only second cars that are used to commute or shop and I don't think people want to pay even $30,000 for that very often.

Just FYI, since August 2017 Bolt is offered in al US states. The fact that it did not sell as well as expected is another story. Tesla understood that the car needs first performance rather than cheap entry price - GM does not get it yet.

I don't think performance is really important to the mainstream. That's 90% of why I bought mine. I'm a gear head and the amazing acceleration just... well, floors me! Pun intended. But I'm sure I'm the exception. A friend just tonight told me they would not replace their CRV with an EV because of the range issues. That's the car they take on trips because it does everything they need with two kids. Maybe the model Y will work for them. If the Bolt had a charging solution they might be interested, it's about the same size, etc.

I am glad you had a good DS - this was not my case, he seemed clueless of my order when he called me. Communications matter - wait until you actually need to get something done, last time I was on hold 45 minutes. Local people are great, but it is very difficult to get to them, unless you are willing to drive the 80 miles to the service center.... Phones usually default to a mailbox, which does not seem well monitored.

Your mileage may vary...

 

[mswlogo]

There is an old saying my boss used to use. Not totally politically correct these days but...He used to say “9 woman can’t make a baby in 1 month”. No offense to anyone. But the meaning was some projects have to run their course. There is way more testing and talent needed for some parts of the software than others. You can’t always just throw more engineers at it and expect things to happen quicker.

Could be a new team “in training” to develop apps, that will be used for something more critical later. But they are not qualified yet to work on more critical stuff. If they build the best fart app, they can move on to something more critical.

It could be an engineer that wrote it on his own time for fun. Elon got wind of it (no pun intended) and said release it.

That said, I think the fart app is also genius. It’s gets kids involved. Did you know Bobby has the coolest Mom because her car farts. Yeah it’s a Tesla. It’s free word of mouth advertising.

So don’t assume critical resources were used for the fart app that could have fixed something else.

 

[acoste]

That said, I think the fart app is also genius. It’s gets kids involved. Did you know Bobby has the coolest Mom because her car farts. Yeah it’s a Tesla. It’s free word of mouth advertising.

I can not imagine a Mercedes E classe releasing a fart app.

Funny for a kids hauler but how does that relate to a business man (who can actually pay for the car). This difference is more pronounced in Europe where one can't show up in a t-shirt for a meeting.
Yeah, whoever doesn't care about it won't use the app, but once the "Tesla" becomes associated with "fart" one may look for a different car.

 

[GreenT]

There is an old saying my boss used to use. Not totally politically correct these days but...He used to say “9 woman can’t make a baby in 1 month”. No offense to anyone. But the meaning was some projects have to run their course. There is way more testing and talent needed for some parts of the software than others. You can’t always just throw more engineers at it and expect things to happen quicker.

It's called the Mythical Man Month
https://www.amazon.com/Mythical-Man-Month-Software-Engineering-Anniversary/dp/0201835959

 

[WarpedOne]

It's interesting how some people simply get it and the other simply don't and will not.
And will wring their hands and preach how the things should be done.

You live in the land of free, go out and do what you preach, build an even better car, you know how to do it, what is stopping you?

 

[gnuarm]

It's interesting how some people simply get it and the other simply don't and will not.
And will wring their hands and preach how the things should be done.

You live in the land of free, go out and do what you preach, build an even better car, you know how to do it, what is stopping you?

Ok, I can do that by buying stock in the established auto companies. Right now I'm riding Tesla's coattails. Once I see the wind change I will see who the rising EV star will be at that time.

Tesla is selling about 200,000 cars this year. GM is selling 10,000,000 and they are just one of many. I would be an idiot to try to take on such a huge marketing force. Elon started with a few billion dollars. That gave him a bit more clout.

 

[xyeahtony]

Not the foreseeable future really.

Tesla has ‘no credible competition,’ analyst says

Tesla Inc. faces no competition at present, and when it does it will be able to hold its own, analysts at Bernstein said in a note Monday.

Model 3s are outselling basically every other luxury ICE vehicle out there, so yeah there's no real competition. And there's not likely to be any for awhile. 2025 is a long time, and that gives Tesla plenty of time to jump ahead. All the things people complain about (quality issues, software bugs) eventually fix themselves with time.

The only real lead Tesla has is in charging.

Which is a major advantage for something like an electric car. The advantage of a tesla charger is you can plug your car in and not have to worry. With third party charging solutions, which every other car manufacturer will have to rely on because no car company is building charging networks (except porsche), there will be fragmentation. Some chargers will charge at 300kw, some only charge at 50kw, 100....etc. All of them basically require you to scan a card to work, the convenience is non existent when using a third party charger. And unless other car manufacturers start building dedicated networks instead of contracting it out to other companies, the ease of charging will always remain in Tesla's favor.

Yes, so much whining about people who think all efforts should be on fixing unpleasant bugs rather than adding totally frivolous apps.

The demographics of the people who are complaining vs those who are enjoying their cars are telling. Some of us have no unpleasant bugs. Like i said, does anyone think if the one guy who created an easter egg didnt and focused on the source code would the rest of the "bugs" be fixed? There is things called multi-tasking.

But if people prefer tesla didn't make easter eggs and just made plain ordinary boring run of the mill cars that don't stand out then by all means. My Model X does a christmas light show, thats awesome. No other car does that, and i'm glad someone came up with that. Makes the car unique.

Really? Having a Tesla is enough? It doesn't need to work?

Like i said, if you receive your car and it works, whats the problem? people complain they dont hear from their delivery specialists for weeks or months before delivery. Who cares? If you get your car, and there are no problems, then why was it such a big deal if your DS emailed you or not? Are people incapable of enjoying their car unless someone from Tesla emails them every 12 hours?

Obviously this car wasn't meant for those who are uptight. If people can't find a way to enjoy a $100k car, then that's on them, not Tesla. The majority of Tesla owners here are happy. I have a brand new Model X with a falcon wing door button that doesn't work, oddly im still enjoying the drive. People who are all doom and gloom about Tesla's future are just repeating the same old stories Tesla's detractors have been shouting for the last 10 years, and well guess what they're still here and still making more cars and money every subsequent quarter.

But hey, that's just me. All work and no play...

And it should be obvious why so many of us defend Tesla despite their imperfections.

They're a new car company, new company period. These things are bound to happen. These things you see with quality control, they take years of experience to fix. 15 years ago Hyundai was making cars that broke down left and right and look at today, nobody is saying "oh don't buy a hyundai they're unreliable. Look at what Tesla has done in the last 10 years, but that's not enough for some people in the instant gratification mindset. People are used to buying ICE vehicles where you get everything at once, not progress.

If you buy a computer or new phone, those are going to have bugs too. But those get fixed eventually, same thing like Tesla.

People should want Tesla to succeed, i know i do. I need them to exist so i can keep my supercharger network, service centers, and sustainable cars to buy in the future. But because somebody's bluetooth doesnt work correctly or because they dont like a fart app, suddenly the car company is unsustainable.

Or maybe its because i'm not exactly wealthy so i just appreciate anything expensive i have. Just culture i suppose.

 

[thecloud]

If you buy a computer or new phone, those are going to have bugs too. But those get fixed eventually, same thing like Tesla.

My expectation is that software running a car's systems should be even more robust and rigorously tested than software for a PC or smartphone, as your life could literally be riding on it. Safety, usability, and quality should be prioritized, and bugs should not be tolerated for long.

It seems like quantity has been the highest priority for a little while now, which is understandable given market expectations and the need for Tesla's long-term success. However, when they seem to have time for fun-but-frivolous things like a fart app, and other bugs aren't getting fixed, it can be discouraging for owners.

Adding these easter eggs is very much an example of the "instant gratification mindset" where they are able to deliver something new and shiny right away. Improving the car's existing functions might not be as quick or easy. For example, there are multiple threads on bugs in the audio system which seem to keep cropping up:
Sound system lost it's "punch" after latest update
Dolby surround gone on MCU1 AP2.5 2017 Oct build

People should want Tesla to succeed, i know i do.

So do I. In fact, I'm pretty sure the OP and everyone else expressing these concerns is doing so because they want Tesla to keep improving, innovating, and succeeding in their mission. It seems like you are fine with new easter eggs and your FWD button not working, but maybe not every potential buyer is going to overlook the flaws. Even if there is zero competition in the short term, Tesla should be holding itself to a higher standard of quality.

 

[Bprdwa]

This whole anti-fart-app thing is baffling to me. First of all, I’m totally fine with the fact that whatever engineer is qualified to write a fart app - or even just wanted to - is doing that instead of working on auto pilot software. Not everyone is a rocket scientist or wears a suit and tie to work, and I for one am thrilled that the company continues to provide an outlet for thinking and shipping outside the box, even if it’s not in a way that personally benefits me.

Plus, what’s wrong with a sense of whimsy? Tesla as a company was built on accomplishing things that every major auto manufacturer in the world said couldn’t be done. And NOW we are worried they don’t toe the business-is-status-quo line?

If you genuinely see the fart app as something that should not have shipped, and not just something that you personally don’t have use for, you don’t get this company.

 

[thecloud]

If you genuinely see the fart app as something that should not have shipped, and not just something that you personally don’t have use for, you don’t get this company.

No, that isn't what I'm saying. I appreciate the sense of whimsy and the fact that Tesla does things that no other auto maker is doing.

What I'm saying is that they should spend more time on improving overall quality and functionality, and clearly prioritizing bug fixes over the frivolous stuff. What really matters is the daily experience of driving the car and whether that's delightful or disappointing.

To put it a different way: it's not a question of "how can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat," but rather: you need more protein than sugar to stay healthy.

 

[Shock-On-T]

I don't know why GM isn't selling more Bolts.

I would also chalk this down to the dealers having no interest in pushing the Bolt.
GM here in Australia is called Holden, and I went into a dealer years ago to ask about the Volt (which had just been released in Aus).
The salesmen appeared visibly offended! He knew almost nothing about the vehicle, and clearly never wanted to.

I bet in the US a Chevy dealer could tell you anything about a Malibu, and nothing about a Bolt.

 

[Evoforce]

I would also chalk this down to the dealers having no interest in pushing the Bolt.
GM here in Australia is called Holden, and I went into a dealer years ago to ask about the Volt (which had just been released in Aus).
The salesmen appeared visibly offended! He knew almost nothing about the vehicle, and clearly never wanted to.

I bet in the US a Chevy dealer could tell you anything about a Malibu, and nothing about a Bolt.

What you say is exactly true as well here in the US. There is no advertising for the Bolt either, and generally dealers do not order them in for inventory to sell or display.

Plenty of Dealers are trying hard to spin potential Bolt customers to everything else in the GM lineup instead. It has been a great compliance car to offset trucks. The supposed near future of GM electrics will be hybrids because they do not want to sell all electric in the near future.

They are being slightly dragged to produce something beyond compliance cars. So GM announces they will have many electrics in their lineup, expect hybrids, hardly no pure (BEV) electric only vehicles.

I really hope pressure from somewhere/everywhere will force them to truly sell BEV's. It is very telling when they won't invest in providing charging availability for the cars they sell. They don't want to make it easy for their customers to buy and use their electric vehicles.

 

[Brando]

This is the sort of thing that I have been pointing out about Tesla that will make the difference in the next two to four years. To date, most of the buyers were excited about having such a unique car they didn't mind some annoyances. But Tesla is working to reach a wider range of buyers now and will need to appeal to a more mass market. For the next few years, even though there will be many new EV introductions, the market will be all about Tesla because of the charging network. But as the competing charging networks grow that will be less of a differentiator. If Tesla hasn't figured out how to make cars that appeal to the mass market by then, the combination of marketing savvy and economic clout of the big iron manufacturers will swamp Tesla in a sea of competition. Big iron is not so nimble as a small startup like Tesla, but once they get rolling, they know how to design, manufacture and most importantly SELL any type of car they want.

Selling EVs is not really about the cars. It's about the buyers, the buyers that big iron has been selling to for many decades. Tesla has been selling to a small pool of techies (not an insult, I'm one too) that can't sustain the market in the face of competition from the rest of the car makers and buyers. From here on out Tesla will adapt to the larger market, or die.

I don't know what that means in terms of the fart app.

Still waiting for the Tesla killer. OR how about just a good competitor to Model S/X/3 ?
Since it is so so easy, I still don't understand why so few EV options and ALL seem backlogged. right?
e-Tron only special order - none in show rooms?? Any Bolts sitting on lots? How about Bolts in EU?
Tesla/Elon mission to accelerate EV adoption - perhaps in 2020??

 

[michidragon]

I've been resisting chiming in on this for a while, and likely will get chewed out, (I'm new) - but I'm a software engineer (RF/DSP - NOT UI or 'web', but i'd be hard pressed for a lot of money men to know the damn difference these days...) and actually more of a software project manager these days.

Not all software engineers can do all things. It's not like there's a "pool of tech guys who just need to have hours applied to a problem". Though I realize some business managers may see it that way. If that's the way you run your business -- great for you, I guess, but this idea that every single developer in the world is interchangeable is something I have to deal with daily in regards to projects and customers. It's not accurate and causes very bad resource allocation. You can't allocate a UX guy to work on DSP. You can't have a Database guy tackle Embedded. They aren't all "nerds in a pit".

And this idea that somehow easter eggs take away from serious dev time is ridiculous.

I'm no fly on the wall at Tesla but you guys realize that "press button, play sound" such as the 'fart app' probably took UI or Audio guy an hour or two at the end of the day one day... Or maybe even at home. (These guys probably have the SDK for the Tesla API at home.)

The idea that this somehow "stole time" from bugs that need to be corrected is … probably not accurate at all. And I'd say preposterous. Tesla isn't the first system to have easter eggs. The nods to the Mythical Man Month were apt, but this idea that somehow "they're concentrating on farts instead of fixes!" is nuts. Nobody's "concentrating" on the fart easter egg. Any dev in the app category I know could write an equivalent for android, iOS, windows, OSX, whatever in probably an hour maximum. Two if they had to find or.... make.. the 'fart samples'.

As far as "prestige" goes, well, if THAT's the complaint, then yeah, make a beeline for BMW or MB.

It sounds like the real complaint here is that Tesla went too low-brow for your high-class demographic.
In that case I'd be really interested in hearing what you thought their target demographic was, and what it should be.

 

[Brando]

I've been responsible for large complex software/hardware systems - and also responsible for quick-time-to-market solutions with a .com (when changes were released in hours or days).

It is possible to develop high quality software - on aggressive schedules - and avoid the types of obvious design flaws and bugs that sometimes get missed with Tesla's development & testing process.

Broader testing and providing owners more flexibility on the specific software in their vehicles would be good first steps.

Though Tesla probably also needs to do a re-assessment of their design process, since some of the changes that get into the final release probably should never have been implemented in the first place (such as removing time-of-day from the console display in V7 and removing the first letter scroll bar for media player lists in V8).

These issues are correctable - if/when Tesla's leadership (Musk) decides software quality is a priority. And with their goal of rapidly increasing AutoPilot functionality and moving to Full Self Driving - they probably shouldn't wait much longer to put a better software process in place...

wow - time and media player - I'm keeping my cell phone and bike - Tesla clearly not ready for marketing - small wonder they don't buy Ads. Why spend money on Ads for such a flawed product. Over the Air Updates - guess that doesn't work either, right?

Have you seen the other EV Ads? Many great options being offered. Just how do they sell this Tesla crap anyway?

 

[immolated]

Please send a detailed email to [email protected], [email protected], and [email protected]

The more people who do this the faster crap will get fixed (especially v9 UI, ugh)

 

[Brando]

Ok, I can do that by buying stock in the established auto companies. Right now I'm riding Tesla's coattails. Once I see the wind change I will see who the rising EV star will be at that time.

Tesla is selling about 200,000 cars this year. GM is selling 10,000,000 and they are just one of many. I would be an idiot to try to take on such a huge marketing force. Elon started with a few billion dollars. That gave him a bit more clout.

A few billion to start? After Pay-Pal sale, Elon cut was ~160 million -1/2 to start SpaceX.
Anyway, note how much Tesla has spent on R&D 2010-2017 for Model S/X/3, SEMI, Roadster, batteries, energy storage, GF2 (solar roof) - double check <$4.8 billion ? is that right?
Tesla's R&D costs 2010-2017 | Statistic

You may not know Tesla history, but I often find your posts thoughtful.

 

[bob_p]

While Tesla could do better in their software quality - it's important to keep this all in perspective.

We've been driving a Tesla for almost 6 years - and other than some annoying bugs in the console app software, the software has operated well - and in the most important areas, provides more capabilities than we've had in any other vehicle. Vehicle operations are controlled by a different processor (which is why you can continue driving while the dashboard or console processor is booting) and I can't recall any major issues with the vehicle operational software.

Can they do better? Absolutely - and at some point, Tesla will do what ever other company has done with their software development - implement software process improvements - and work to reduce the number of obvious bugs and design flaws that get into the released software. Though it's understandable Tesla will want to push this off for now, with so much else on their plate to get established firmly in the market before the other manufacturers figure this out and start selling truly competitive vehicles.

Tesla has had the market to themselves up until now - with the only viable long distance EVs. While the other manufacturers are starting to introduce vehicles that may compete with Tesla - Tesla still has several areas where they continue to have a significant advantage - and may be able to sustain that advantage (such as the ability to design and manufacturer their own batteries and motors - the two most expensive components).

Despite some annoying bugs, overall our S 100D and X 100D are the best vehicles we've ever owned - and we only expect them to keep getting better as Tesla continues to add new software features...