I find that HIGHLY unlikely since Model S and X are not doing too bad in Europe and Model 3 is obviously much more affordable. Europe Electric Car Sales Up 54% Will be interesting to see ....
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I find that HIGHLY unlikely since Model S and X are not doing too bad in Europe and Model 3 is obviously much more affordable. Europe Electric Car Sales Up 54% Will be interesting to see ....
X Fan
Active Member
Environmental considerations aside:
A good tradeoff for some: they will have to adjust their seats but they'll never have to worry about skimmers taking CC info at the station pump.....big issue in Florida with skimmer fraud up over 100% y/y.
As someone who's daily driven an i3, I find these comparisons based on features where one car is gas and the other a BEV amusing.
Gas cars feel completely broken to me now. The lag-at-all-speeds, the noise, the shifting, the inconveniently timed need to stop at a gas station, the inability to remote start in a closed garage, the 50% more expensive refueling... All ridiculous limitations to me now.
At this point I'd take a base Model 3 over a LOADED 3 Series even if they were available to me at the same price! And I say that as a BMW fan (has a 3 Series before he i3). The outdated drivetrain kills the entire car for me. Zero interest until BMW makes a comparable BEV. (i3 is great, but has its own unique set of problems).
Gas cars feel completely broken to me now. The lag-at-all-speeds, the noise, the shifting, the inconveniently timed need to stop at a gas station, the inability to remote start in a closed garage, the 50% more expensive refueling... All ridiculous limitations to me now.
At this point I'd take a base Model 3 over a LOADED 3 Series even if they were available to me at the same price! And I say that as a BMW fan (has a 3 Series before he i3). The outdated drivetrain kills the entire car for me. Zero interest until BMW makes a comparable BEV. (i3 is great, but has its own unique set of problems).
Thanks for catching the errors. The 8 year warranty covers both the battery and drive unit which is essentially the drivetrain for the the car. Do you have a source for the headlights being LED or is that an assumption?
jschwefel
Tesla fan/TSLA, Model Y and Cybertruck owner.
I COMPLETELY AGREE. I no longer have any interest in an ICE car. The lack of response, noise, shifting, smells, etc. will keep me from ever buying another one, no matter what bells and whistles they have. I would take a base Model 3 over any ICE car, including the top tier sports cars. The simplicity, smoothness, quiet ride, instant response, silent and violent acceleration of the Tesla is nothing short of amazing. There's no looking back for me.
The source for the headlights being LED is the Tesla Press kit: Press Kit | Tesla
Now, about that drivetrain/drive-unit warranty. Do you have a source for that or is that an assumption based on the S&X?
Again from the Tesla press kit:
They mention the battery warranty, but nothing about the drive-unit or drivetrain.
Scannerman
Member
Has it gotten to the point, where one cannot say something negative about a Tesla vehicle, irrespective of the validity, without being subjected to some unsubstantiated slur? I thought this site was noted for civility!
Scannerman
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I have seen the press kit--could not really tell if that included the headlights or just the other accent lighting, tail lights, etc. The drivetrain piece is an assumption they will be consistent with the S and X warranty. In this case, I think its a good bet as the reason they eventually rolled this out was to remove perceived risk of the drivetrain--not sure I see them gong backwards on this and given folks a new source of FUD.
AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
Your calculation somehow is way off. See:
Base Model 3 net: 35K USD/Euro
plus 10% import duty: 3.5K Euro
plus 19% VAT: 7.3K Euro
Base Model 3 gross: 45.8K Euro
plus PUP: 5K USD/Euro (hopefully gross, not net, otherwise add another 19% VAT)
plus colour: 1K USD/Euro
Base Model 3 with colour and PUP: 51.8K Euro
minus 4K BEV subsidy: 47.8K Euro
BMW 330i base MSRP: 42.5K Euro (who buys an automatic if he doesn't have to, honestly?)
But just for fun (and because someone asked), let's take the 340i, with the even more expensive Steptronic Sport transmission:
BMW 340i Sport line (with 18 inch wheels) MSRP: 54.1K Euro
plus colour: 0.9K Euro
plus automatic transmission Steptronic Sport: 2.4K Euro
plus leather seats: 1.8K Euro
plus wood trim: 0.4K Euro
plus navigation package ConnectedDrive: 3.1K Euro (includes real time navigation, phone integration and wireless charging, remote services, concierge service, real time traffic information, anti theft alarm system)
plus TACC, including automatic high beam assistant: 0.8K Euro
plus speed limit info: 0.3K Euro
plus automatic parking, pdc and backup camera: 1.0K Euro
plus heated steering wheel: 0.2K Euro
plus electric glass roof: 1.1K Euro
plus power sport seats with memory: 1.1K Euro
plus heated seats front and back: 0.7K Euro
plus harman/kardon sound system 1.1K Euro
plus DAB radio: 0.3K Euro
plus TV function: 1.0K Euro
plus online entertainment incl. WiFi hotspot: 0.2K Euro
plus adaptive LED headlights incl. washer: 1.4K Euro
plus power folding, heated, auto-dimming mirrors 0.4K Euro
and you arrive at just a little under 70K Euro MSRP!
Far more than the base Model 3, BUT, now subtract the various rebates, and you arrive at about 50K Euro, sometimes even less!
Plus, for that you get a car that is better equipped, has the 0-62 time (5.1 seconds) of the higher end Model 3, plus the quality and image of BMW, something that means a lot to many buyers, for the same money as the Model 3 base with colour and PUP (no Autopilot or FSD mind you - or even nice wheels, which you can only get when upgrading to 19 inch - at the moment, Tesla of course might add other free 18 inch wheel designs in future).
Now you can argue that the running costs of the Model 3 might be lower, but we don't really know that yet.
Tesla service is known to be very expensive, insurance premiums for the Model S are much higher than average, so those for the Model 3 could potentially be as well. And electricity is hardly free over here either. So the savings Tesla list on their website might be true for the US, for Germany they are highly exaggerated.
Again, I am sure I will get my Model 3 anyway (unless the proposed BMW 3-series BEV turns out to be a better offer), I just wanted to show you why your calculation (and following conclusion) is way off.
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A rise of 54% from almost nothing is still almost nothing.
EVs account for less than 1,5% of the market sadly, and even those measly numbers are mostly the crappy 150km range BMW i series and the Renault Zoe.
Our statistic guys presented a calculation a short while back that we`d need to have something like a permanent 2000% growth to even get close to our target numbers for 2020, and even that goal was kinda....
meanwhile the NOx values in the cities go through the roof and diesels are still running.....
Wow, I forgot about the import tax.... and you can bet that you`ll have to add VAT to all extras.
****, this is even worse than I thought.
The base model 3 could very well end up at 50k€ with just PUP as extra.........
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There's no import tax when routing vehicles through Tilburg. The base version should cost someting like this, using 1.1 USD/EUR:
Base Model 3: 31.82k EUR
Plus delivery: 2k EUR
plus 19% VAT: 6.43k EUR
Base Model 3 gross: 40.25K EUR
Minus subsidy: 4k EUR
Total: 36.25k EUR
And with PUP/metallic:
Model 3: 37.27k EUR
Plus delivery: 2k EUR
plus 19% VAT: 7.46k EUR
Model 3 gross: 46.73K EUR
Minus subsidy: 4k EUR
Total: 42.73k EUR
Base Model 3: 31.82k EUR
Plus delivery: 2k EUR
plus 19% VAT: 6.43k EUR
Base Model 3 gross: 40.25K EUR
Minus subsidy: 4k EUR
Total: 36.25k EUR
And with PUP/metallic:
Model 3: 37.27k EUR
Plus delivery: 2k EUR
plus 19% VAT: 7.46k EUR
Model 3 gross: 46.73K EUR
Minus subsidy: 4k EUR
Total: 42.73k EUR
JoaoD
Tech Enthusiast
Shipping the cars is not free. Is that what you consider the 2k delivery? Also the exchange rate is nowhere near the one you used for the Model S and X, or is it in Norway?
AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
In an ideal world, yes, and I would love for that calculation to come true.
Actually, that is how I calculated way back in 2012, when I thought I could get myself a Model S 40.
Unfortunately though, reality is quite a bit different, if the experience with Model S and X has taught us anything.
I wouldn't mind being pleasantly surprised, but I am calculating the scenario for my Model 3 (long range) like this:
44K Euro plus import tax and VAT = 58K Euro
plus PUP = 63K Euro
Anything quite a bit below that and I will be a happy camper indeed.
Yes, I could have written "shipping", rather than "delivery".
The USD has been weakening against the Euro (and NOK) recently. There should be a price adjustment in the near future, if the exchange rate stays at this level.
Right off the bat you pretend that USD and EUR are the same. 1 EUR = 1,18335 USD at today's exchange rate.
WTO regulations forbid protectionist tarrifs, so I'm not sure what you refer to the first part. Often people traveling into a VAT country have to pay duties on their goods, but those duties are VAT. Indeed, googling for "Germany import duty", this is what comes up, which is about VAT. And you're using VAT in a strange manner. VAT doesn't run afoul of WTO regulations because it treats foreign and domestic goods the same. Inside a VAT zone, both foreign and domestic goods have to have paid it. Goods leaving a VAT zone are VAT rebated, so overseas, both foreign and domestic goods have not paid VAT.
In short, you have to be very careful when comparing prices between VAT and non-VAT areas.
Now, if, by import duty, you meant the cost to import a vehicle (shipping, port fees, etc), individuals don't do that as a general rule; companies do. Someone in Germany isn't going to buy a US Model 3 and ship it in. Not only would it be pointless, but it'd have the wrong charger on it (Tesla uses their own connector in the US, but a high power Type 2 in Europe). Companies can charge whatever they want in whatever market they want, so best is to compare actual numbers.
Model S bestellen
A Model S 75 is 67970 base price in EUR ($80432 USD). For the US, a Model S 75 is $69500***. The prices are 15% more expensive. That is including VAT, according to Tesla itself. To estimate the base Model 3 cost, a bit more nuance is required, as part of the price difference is in percentages and part is in fees / benefits. The net of the latter works out to -1560 EUR (-$1846 USD). This gives us a pre-adjusted price difference of 18,39% difference (nearly 19%, the VAT rate). Let's be pessimistic and say 19% difference. So the base Model 3 then becomes $41650, which we then adjust by the same fixed fees / benefits on the S, since they're constant. This comes out to $39804 USD, or 33637 EUR
Versus your claim of "45.8K Euro".
Then on top of that, you leave out the individual rebate which can be applied for (3K EUR). Why do you do it? Beats me, given that it's already been discussed extensively here. You seem to want to try to hit the Tesla price with every fee that you can while leaving off anything favourable to it. So the Tesla price after the rebate (but not counting fuel savings) is 30,6k EUR.
Versus your claim of 45.8K EUR. Over 15k EUR cheaper. Do we then need to factor in the savings on gas in Germany, a country where gasoline averages $6.09 per gallon?
It's easy to win a price comparison when you boost the price of the side you want to lose by 50%, you know.
*** If you want to make it easy, just simply observe that the Model S price in EUR is slightly lower than the US price in USD. Apply the same to the Model 3.
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The EU has a 10% import tariff on cars. Tesla currently gets around it by routing EU vehicles through Tilburg (in the Netherlands), where they attach the wheels and some stuff like that. At that point the car is made in the EU, and the import duty doesn't apply. Tesla will most likely do the same thing with the Model 3.
Thanks for that - I wonder how that doesn't run afoul of the WTO's anti-protectionism rules? Regardless of how Tesla does it, it's clear that their EU pricing vs. US pricing difference isn't even remotely like AustinPowers presented it, as can be seen by comparing the Tesla pricing for the S.
@AustinPowers, in addition to the issues noted by @KarenRei that inflate your estimate for Model 3 pricing, including not applying the exchange rate (!?!?) -- currently $1.18 and predicted to go higher by futures markets -- your estimates for a comparable 330i are off.
As noted in the Electrek article and my earlier post, the base Model 3 includes many options that cost extra in the BMW 330i, including navigation, backup camera, parking sensors, and safety features from Autopilot. An apples-to-apples comparison should include these (as well as automatic transmission, which you also excluded).
From the BMW German configurator, to match the base Model 3 (about 31K EUR as estimated by @KarenRei), requires:
Base 330i with automatic (Steptronic) transmission (44.65K EUR)
Reverse camera (420 EUR)
Park distance control (200 EUR)
Lane change warning (560 EUR plus required 370 EUR mirror package)
Driving assistant (520 EUR)
Climate (650 EUR)
Nav. Sys Professional/Nav. Connected Drive (3100 EUR)
50,470 EUR
mein.bmw.de/u1p0p7x6
So Model 3 is far cheaper -- something on the order of 15-20K EUR less expensive for the base model versus comparable BMW 330i. You would have to get a fantastic discount to get close to matching that. Again, that is before fuel savings, which should be considerable.
As noted in the Electrek article and my earlier post, the base Model 3 includes many options that cost extra in the BMW 330i, including navigation, backup camera, parking sensors, and safety features from Autopilot. An apples-to-apples comparison should include these (as well as automatic transmission, which you also excluded).
From the BMW German configurator, to match the base Model 3 (about 31K EUR as estimated by @KarenRei), requires:
Base 330i with automatic (Steptronic) transmission (44.65K EUR)
Reverse camera (420 EUR)
Park distance control (200 EUR)
Lane change warning (560 EUR plus required 370 EUR mirror package)
Driving assistant (520 EUR)
Climate (650 EUR)
Nav. Sys Professional/Nav. Connected Drive (3100 EUR)
50,470 EUR
mein.bmw.de/u1p0p7x6
So Model 3 is far cheaper -- something on the order of 15-20K EUR less expensive for the base model versus comparable BMW 330i. You would have to get a fantastic discount to get close to matching that. Again, that is before fuel savings, which should be considerable.
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