Tesla Model 3 vs BMW 3 Series (Electrek)

[voip-ninja]

It's going to be really interesting to see what Tesla looks like in 2019 - once the most die hard folks have gotten their orders AND full production is up at 500,000 cars per year. Will there be enough demand for a $40k-$60k car to meet these production goals? Currently the BMW 3 series is not even manufacturing 500,000 cars per year, and USA Sales make up 100,000 - 140,000 of that. (numbers at the bottom of the page)

So we're saying that the model 3 is going to replace and surpass the BMW 3 series sales? That's a tall order, especially without tax credits.

Despite the vocal camp here that thinks they hit it out of the park, there's another just as vocal camp outside these forums that doesn't agree. More to the point, I think many can agree that BMW is the reigning King for a reason, it's a solid car that's fun to drive. It's not like the rest of the ISE world (again outside of these forums) is clamoring for a replacement. You have to convince them to make the change somehow.

You make some good points. I've been in BMW now for nearly 5 years and they build very fun to drive, solid and dependable cars. I'm not on a save the earth crusade pushing me to switch to an EV.

I'm looking at the Tesla M3 as being something that should still be fun to drive and I get a $12,500 federal and state tax incentive to buy one.

If I purchase it, it would be my first "long term" car purchase that I've done in over 15 years since I get bored with cars pretty easily.... and would plan on keeping it for 8-10 years.

 

[voip-ninja]

How will resale of an ICE like 3-series or A4 (or any ICE?) be in 4 years? Will demand (new & used) have shifted to BEV's? Will a number of petrol stations have closed making petrol less convenient to purchase? What will the cost of petrol be vs electricity (purchased or solar generated)? Will petrol companies have begun to milk what remains of their cow? How will those buying used in 2021 view the resale of ICE in 2025 and what impact will that have on how they value a used ICE? Will an ICE car in 2021 be viewed similar to a CRT computer display a few years after LED/LCD was introduced?

You really think that gas stations are going to be shuttered in 4 years because of a drastic shift to EVs? Really? Come on now. If EVs make up even 10% of new car sales in 4 years that would be impressive. No gas stations will be closing anytime soon.

 

[MP3Mike]

You really think that gas stations are going to be shuttered in 4 years because of a drastic shift to EVs? Really? Come on now. If EVs make up even 10% of new car sales in 4 years that would be impressive. No gas stations will be closing anytime soon.

We have already seen lot of stations close. My guess is because of the higher mileage of modern ICEs and hybrids.

 

[ChrisH]

We have already seen lot of stations close. My guess is because of the higher mileage of modern ICEs and hybrids.

Really? Where? I think it will take at least until 2030 until electrics get close to overtaking ICE vehicles. And that's only if tesla pulls this off. Cars will have to get a lot cheaper.

 

[JeffK]

There's quite a few that closed in my area... there are also other places where there are gas stations are each corner of an intersection.
My thought is that the best way to make the most money now and in the future is to install chargers at these gas stations especially ones with convenience stores.

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

I waited for the model 3 reveal and really hoped that this would finally be a worthy replacement for my c-class....
Turns out I`d need to invest a good 50.000 just for an electric powertrain with decent range and still get an interieur that's several classes below what I´m used to....

Well, my desires for the model 3 died together with the reveal.

You obviously haven't driven a Model S on a daily basis. I would guess not even a test drive.

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

I don't exactly remember how they phrased that it would be competitive with the 3 series Z(whether that meant performance, price, dimensions, or what) but I do remember that multiple times, including Friday night, Elon has said it would be the BEST car for 35k - period.

I guess, for me, at 35k, it's still a compelling car but I think they fell short of it being "The Best". At the end of the day though, I'm willing to wait for what the industry analysts and reviewers say (CR, Car and Driver, Edmunds, etc) all the folks that claimed that the Model S was the best car ever, will they call the Model 3 the best car ever for 35k? I don't think so, but I'm willing to wait an see when they actually create that 35k car and it gets objectively compared by the folks driving it.

They definitely will declare it the best $35,000 car.

 

[larmor]

Anyone care to compare M3 to lexus IS 350 offering?

 

[omarsultan]

I worked up this table for a blog post, but thought I would share here too--look at the base Model 3 vs a base BMW 320i and Audi A4.

 

[e-FTW]

So:

• According to the Electrek piece, both the Model 3 and the BMW 3 series have the same rear leg room.
• I have been in a few 3 series Lyft rides, and my god is it cramped back there!
• Early reviews have been praising the leg room in the back of the Model 3.

How can all of those things be true?

 

[stopcrazypp]

So:

• According to the Electrek piece, both the Model 3 and the BMW 3 series have the same rear leg room.
• I have been in a few 3 series Lyft rides, and my god is it cramped back there!
• Early reviews have been praising the leg room in the back of the Model 3.

How can all of those things be true?

Leg room measurements can only be relied as ball park. How far back the front seat is positioned will affect it, and it also fails to factor in certain details (like how the 3 series has a drive shaft tunnel; is there a space under the front seat for your feet, etc).

Actually sitting in the seats and comparing is probably more reliable.

 

[AustinPowers]

And then add 19% VAT to the BMW, and subtract €4,000 from the Tesla for the EV rebate. Good try, though

Then do the same thing to the BMW, which only offers black and basic white base colours and charges €700 for other colours; comes standard in 17" wheels; etc. And PUP isn't an option in either the Model 3 (at least at present) or the 3-series (ever).

The German base price includes VAT already, so no need to add it again. Whether the Model 3 will get the German EV subsidy is still unknown, but for fairness let's assume it will. You still end up much cheaper with the BMW. Why? Because in Germany you don't pay the list price. The usual rebates range from 10% at the least to more than 25% on unpopular models. Current rebate for a 330i is around 20% ! But even without that, you come out ahead. Concerning colours, it is actually 890 Euro for colours other than black or white. At least you can get white for free, not possible on the Model 3.

By the way, what do you mean by
"And PUP isn't an option in either the Model 3 (at least at present)"?
Of course it is. It's a 5K USD option and admittedly for what you get for that it's quite good value for money. No argueing there.

Look, I am not trying to argue that the Model 3 will be the best BEV for the money (at least until the competition finally arrives in 2018/19), but over here at least it will still be a car that is hardly "mass market", and that there is no way it will be as good a deal as in California, Norway, the Netherlands, etc.
All I said was I could fully understand Phrixotrichus's statement.

It sounds like the EV rebate about covers the import tax.
So even in Germany, about similar pricing.

Only if you assume that you would pay MSRP for the BMW over here, which you don't. It's unfair versus Tesla, but it's how the market works over here. I know many people who are confused when I tell them that the Tesla sticker price is really what you pay in the end. These people say "What? No rebates? Who do those Tesla people think they are? I'll stick to my [insert other carmaker]."

Nissan may serve your segment.
Or check out the Prius Prime. I have one and like it a lot, although it is not a Model 3.

Except that the Passat that Phrixotrichus mentioned is not (unlike in the US, where it is positioned lower) a competitor for a Nissan or Prius. It's one "luxury" and quality level above those competitors.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

You're right. Case in point, my brother and his wife were in the market for a new car for her. They looked at mid-size sedans (Camry, Accord, Altima, Focus, etc.). His wife based her decision solely on how well she can see out of the back window. Yep...that's all she cared about. (The Altima won by the way).

She would hate the S then. That's the one thing about the S I could not stand. The view outside the back is by far the worst in any car I have ever seen. I mentioned this during the test drive and the Tesla guy told me to have the rear camera on at all times.

Well, Model 3 should be better back window wise (higher cabin, bigger window).

Model S rear window is really strange too in how it stretches things.

 

[30seconds]

Have you driven a $35K 3 Series? It is not the work of art that some people think it is.

ugh. base 3 series these days is stripped down, underpowered, fluffy POS. you really need to spend at least $10k for upgraded engine + suspension to make a 3 series semi-worthwhile these days.

 

[AustinPowers]

Yesterday I went into GM dealership. Dealer words: "We dont have Bolt on display neither you can testdrive it. Ordering is available, with January delivery." Does not look like they have overstock issues with Bolt.

Same with the European Bolt clone Ampera-e. GM massively underestimated the demand, so that we have to wait until 2019 (!) to get one over here!

 

[AustinPowers]

How will resale of an ICE like 3-series or A4 (or any ICE?) be in 4 years? Will demand (new & used) have shifted to BEV's? Will a number of petrol stations have closed making petrol less convenient to purchase? What will the cost of petrol be vs electricity (purchased or solar generated)? Will petrol companies have begun to milk what remains of their cow? How will those buying used in 2021 view the resale of ICE in 2025 and what impact will that have on how they value a used ICE? Will an ICE car in 2021 be viewed similar to a CRT computer display a few years after LED/LCD was introduced?

I think we can answer simply by saying "No".
Look, I am on your side, and among family, friends and colleagues I am the known BEV nerd. But I am a realist too, and from what I can see all around me, there is no way in hell that ICE's will become extinct (or even a seriously endangered species) within the next at least ten years at minimum, Dieselgate notwithstanding.

You know when BEVs will crush ICEs? As soon as they are cheaper to buy and run than ICEs, while offering the same convenience, i.e. range and charging infrastructure. At the moment, the Tesla SCs are the only viable charging network widely available. Everything else is a mess, both in terms of complexity as well as economically. If you don't own a Tesla, at least in Europe, you need tons of different memberships/cards/apps from all kinds of local electricity suppliers, you have to hope that their chargers really are where their apps tell you, that they are open, available and in working order. No non-Tesla BEV owner I know is happy about the situation. And if you ask why they didn't buy a Tesla in the first place - well, they simply couldn't afford a 70K to 150K Euro car.
The Model 3 will certainly lower the entry threshold, and get many people, including me, to take the step towards owning a BEV. Even more importantly, it will finally get the competition off their lazy ar*es and bring out their own BEV offerings. But until those manage to change the whole car buying landscape will still take many years imho.

And please don't compare the situation to that of mobile phones before and after the introduction of the iPhone. I know it seems tempting, but buying a small appliance like a phone is something completely different to buying the second most expensive thing other than a house for most people.

We have already seen lot of stations close. My guess is because of the higher mileage of modern ICEs and hybrids.

Fascinating. I can't remember the last time I saw a closed gas station. The last wave of closures was in the 1980s, when a lot of small independently owned stations closed while large chains expanded everywhere. At the moment, we have around 30 gas stations in the local area, never more than five minutes drive in any direction to get to one.

 

[Phrixotrichus]

You obviously haven't driven a Model S on a daily basis. I would guess not even a test drive.

My colleague has a p85 as company car, but that thing is seriously way too expensive for what it is, especially since we get 30% off any BMW but 0% for Teslas here.

In the end I´d pay more for an entry level Model S than a completeley stuffed BMW 5 series...and that`s definitely not gonna happen, the quality differences are just too big and the range also bothers me.

And the same will happen with the model 3 over here.
With the most important options, namely autopilot and battery upgrade + VAT it will end up in the same price range as a high end BMW3 series or a mid level BMW 5 series...and that is definitely not a comparison in favor of the Tesla if you`re not a complete EV nerd.

 

[KarenRei]

Fascinating. I can't remember the last time I saw a closed gas station. The last wave of closures was in the 1980s, when a lot of small independently owned stations closed while large chains expanded everywhere. At the moment, we have around 30 gas stations in the local area, never more than five minutes drive in any direction to get to one.

There's been a clear trend for decades now of gas station closures in the US - it's gone from around 210k stations in 1993 to around 180k at present. Gas station profit margins have been declining, older stations had trouble meeting newer environmental regulations, some larger stations drove smaller stations out of business, etc. That said, I'm sure ever-improving CAFE standards took a bite as well - what would have been steady growth has instead turned into a wavering plateau.

Unless the US pulls a Norway, it's going to be a while before EVs really factor into the picture. But it's just a matter of time.

 

[smak]

I did a comparison of Model 3 to Mercedes C, and it's not even close, Model 3 base is better than C base in everything that's not personal preference.

-smak-

 

[KarenRei]

I worked up this table for a blog post, but thought I would share here too--look at the base Model 3 vs a base BMW 320i and Audi A4.

Model 3 comes standard in 18" wheels, not 17".
Top speed of the base model is 130mph, not 140.
8yrs is a battery warranty, not a powertrain warranty
All exterior lights (which would include headlights) are LED.
Misspelled "Passenger"