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Tesla now RENTS solar panels
- Thread starter Rachmaninov
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- Solar Solar Roof Tesla Energy
I believe the homeowner has the contract with the power company so nothing would change as far as true up. You rent the solar from Tesla and you sell the generation to the power company. Tesla may own the system but presumably you would own the generation as long as you make the payments. Earlier I read that Tesla can turn off the generation if you cancel the contract.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Thanks. I notice that screws were put into the rafters. My roof, and many, many others in PNM territory require or want a ballast install.
I'm going to give them a call tomorrow.
Naftaturbo
Member
My system is a 10.075kW rated from 31 panels (though in reality it'll never get there; in reality it's closer to 9kW). I also have a PowerWall. Note: as another member commented earlier, in hindsight perhaps I should have insisted on more panels (Tesla Operations dissuaded me from an additional 3 or 4 panels as I'd originally planned) and a second PW.
It took about 3 weeks to reach agreement on the contract. It then took another couple of weeks to reach agreement on the installation configuration. It then took about a month for LADWP and LABS to approve the design and construction. The actual installation was done in one long day by a crew of about 9 men. You should be aware that it wasn't an easy installation. There are 3 arrays: the largest one on the flat roof (20 panels), the smallest (5 panels on a south facing pitched roof), and 6 panels on the north facing portion of that same pitched roof. The PW was installed at the same time. When that large crew left the system was operational but was locked out awaiting inspection by LABS and PTO from LADWP. The Building & Safety inspector took another week to come out and approve, and LADWP took about 3 weeks to provide the PTO and that was with continuing nudging from me (note that Tesla has no control over the inspections and in fact mine were done more quickly than folks I've spoken with who used other suppliers).
So, all-in-all I'm satisfied with my Tesla PV Solar Panel system and would recommend Tesla for anyone considering PV solar and battery back-up.
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Naftaturbo
Member
Hrrmm. Don't know why Tesla wouldn't do that. I don't see that they're tied into any system or hardware for mounting; they used two different systems on my home. Having said that, and only having professional experience in internal aerodynamics. I'd be wary of a ballast system anywhere that has high winds as the array definitely would provide aerodynamic forces. Also, you'd need to make sure that a ballast mounting system would allow the panels to be placed at the proper angle to maximize the solar irradiance in your location. You might end up having to find a lot of depleted Uranium for your ballasts. (yes... that was a bad old engineer joke...)
In any case, if you can work a mounting agreement with them, my research indicates that the Tesla/Panasonic panels and the PowerWall are the best in the field. In my installation they used SolarEdge for the inverter (that I'm happy about) and the rest of the equipment (electrical panels, breakers, wiring, conduits, etc) were all top-notch brand equipment.
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I have never paid a lot of attention to my bill, except that I was super happy that my nights are free and my rate is only 12c / kWh... atleast I thought, until today I actually looked at the bill and I extracted last 27 months of data, and to my surprise, I saw that the nights-free is not really saving any penny at all.
With the result, I am actually *exactly* paying the same average amount/month - around $180/month - over a 12 month period with both the plans.
This is what the plan says:
This is the rate I am getting charged - notice the $0.15/kWh rate in the bill:
And this is the bill for the last 27 months (recent 17 months on free-nights plan)
- The effective rate/kWh actually came to 20c/kWh although my plan it is clearly advertised as 12c/kWh. I noticed that they are charging me 15c/kwh, and the additional 5c/kWh cost comes from Oncor delivery charges.
- The previous plan that had no free-nights, actually came to an effective, all inclusive 10c/kWh.
With the result, I am actually *exactly* paying the same average amount/month - around $180/month - over a 12 month period with both the plans.
This is what the plan says:
This is the rate I am getting charged - notice the $0.15/kWh rate in the bill:
And this is the bill for the last 27 months (recent 17 months on free-nights plan)
Question for the enlightened here:
Since I have free nights plan, does it make sense to install Powerwalls, charge at night and use it during day?
From the data above I use an average of 800 kWh/month during the day, or I need to shift around 26 kWh charging each night and use that the next day.
So how many Powerwalls do I need?
Since I have free nights plan, does it make sense to install Powerwalls, charge at night and use it during day?
From the data above I use an average of 800 kWh/month during the day, or I need to shift around 26 kWh charging each night and use that the next day.
So how many Powerwalls do I need?
I am not sure if anyone addressed this yet, but can I do this just like my netflix plan where I cancel and only activate when they have decent to watch. What I mean is can I activate in the spring and cancel the plan in the fall. We all know winter, you get little to nothing. Most of the year generation is in the summer. This can further reduce the total cost.
Naftaturbo
Member
Electroman: Those tables raise a lot of questions, don't they?
* Seems like there's an error in the 2nd table? I get an average monthly cost of $182,
* Do you really use as much or more power at night than you do during the day? That seems strange to me. I use an average of 47kWh/day and around 70-80% of that is during the day That includes charging our Model 3 as and when required. Granted we're retired and so tend to be home more than a young working family, but yours still seems a strange distribution to me. Are you sure you're being billed correctly? You may want to put a time-base monitor on your panel for a few weeks.
* Assuming you don't mind occasionally paying for grid-supplied power on days when you exceed your average (which from your table will be quite a few especially during the summer months) and want to just base your PW requirements on the average, and assuming a 100% efficiency (charge/discharge) from your PW (impossible - you'll probably be around 85-90% when new) you'd need 2 PW. If you take efficiency into account, you'll need 3 to meet your 26kWh estimate. Of course that would reduce the number of days that you have to draw from the grid to very few.
* The big question, I think, is whether your grid supplier will allow you to brokerage the power. I don't know of any residential suppliers that will allow home brokering (purchasing power during a low rate, storing it, using it during high rate period). Since your supplier will have to approve your installation and provide you a PTO, they will insist on a control system that prevents charging your batteries from the grid except after a power outage that occurred during the high rate period.
* If you use the batteries every day the expected battery life will be pretty low (a couple of years?). These batteries are not designed for daily (brokerage) use but for "emergency" backup. I think Tesla's PowerWall is the best out there available for residential use but not even Tesla PW is intended to be used every day through a full cycle.
Of course if you already have solar PV and your plan is to use solar to charge the batteries then the brokerage question goes away.
I'd be interested in hearing what your grid supplier has to say about your plan. Also if you have any research on PW life expectancy when fully cycled every day of the year.
* Seems like there's an error in the 2nd table? I get an average monthly cost of $182,
* Do you really use as much or more power at night than you do during the day? That seems strange to me. I use an average of 47kWh/day and around 70-80% of that is during the day That includes charging our Model 3 as and when required. Granted we're retired and so tend to be home more than a young working family, but yours still seems a strange distribution to me. Are you sure you're being billed correctly? You may want to put a time-base monitor on your panel for a few weeks.
* Assuming you don't mind occasionally paying for grid-supplied power on days when you exceed your average (which from your table will be quite a few especially during the summer months) and want to just base your PW requirements on the average, and assuming a 100% efficiency (charge/discharge) from your PW (impossible - you'll probably be around 85-90% when new) you'd need 2 PW. If you take efficiency into account, you'll need 3 to meet your 26kWh estimate. Of course that would reduce the number of days that you have to draw from the grid to very few.
* The big question, I think, is whether your grid supplier will allow you to brokerage the power. I don't know of any residential suppliers that will allow home brokering (purchasing power during a low rate, storing it, using it during high rate period). Since your supplier will have to approve your installation and provide you a PTO, they will insist on a control system that prevents charging your batteries from the grid except after a power outage that occurred during the high rate period.
* If you use the batteries every day the expected battery life will be pretty low (a couple of years?). These batteries are not designed for daily (brokerage) use but for "emergency" backup. I think Tesla's PowerWall is the best out there available for residential use but not even Tesla PW is intended to be used every day through a full cycle.
Of course if you already have solar PV and your plan is to use solar to charge the batteries then the brokerage question goes away.
I'd be interested in hearing what your grid supplier has to say about your plan. Also if you have any research on PW life expectancy when fully cycled every day of the year.
If you don't have solar, you can charge overnight and use it during the day. The usable capacity of new Powerwalls is 13.5kWh each. So, you would need two Powerwalls to time shift 26kWh per day. Round trip efficiency is quoted at 89%, so you should expect to use about 2.8 kWh per day more for time shifting.
If you do have solar, you cannot charge the Powerwalls from the grid at night. They will only charge from solar in the USA.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
The table you posted shows the 'effective rate' as ~ 10 cents a kWh.
I'll hazard a guess that TXU came up with 12.6 cents a kWh by averaging day and night use for their customer base. Since you use relatively more energy at night your 'effective rate' is below average. I presume the 'effective rate' is totat_cost / total_kWh. Click on those little (i) icons for more information
I have never seen cheaper retail, delivered energy. Your sky-high bills are obviously due to sky-high consumption.
As for gaming TXU, if the utility allows it you have 3 choices:
PV
Battery
PV+battery
Ask TXU for your load profile and match it up to PV generation since that would be cheapest. If it is a poor fit then consider a battery. Once question I do have is the delivery charges of ~ $100. I cannot tell if it is calculated from all the kWh delivered, just the non-night kWh, or a combination of two tariffs. It matters because it affects your current daytime charges and therefore the economics of a replacement with PV and/or battery.
Why do you not have PV ?
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You are correct. The average with free-nights plan is $182, which is the same as that of the one that I had earlier in Table-1, without the free-nights. Kind of fiendishly the same amount I am paying with both the plans.. Hmmm...
Yes I do. I charge my M3 exclusively at nights only. Also run the other heavy loads like dishwasher, laundry at night. And most importantly my AC thermostat setting are set around 5F less during night than day.
I called TXU a few months ago on this and the rep said they have no issues if I want to charge/store at night and use it during the day, although I had a suspicion that he didn't really know. I am going to find out again on this.
Thanks again for your reply.
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Not sure why you say that. I divided - what I pay / "billed kWh" - and that comes to 20c/kWh. Of course if I add the energy consumed at night (which is free) then it comes to 10c, but that is NOT what I was told. If you look at the plan it says 12.6c/kWh. But the a rate of 15c is used in my monthly bill.
I am going to find out from TXU what convoluted explanation I am going to get.
I don't see the need for Solar, when I can charge the PW for free at nights. And another reason is, to the get the same amount of kWh, PW is cheaper than Solar. To get the 2 PW worth of electricity during the day time would cost me significantly more in Solar.
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Thanks. I am thinking 2 PW, and that would offset me by about $14K. With a savings of around $2k per year, that is an ROI of 7 years, assuming:
- PW doesn't degrade significantly over the years. As someone said the use case of PW is not for daily charge/discharge and time shifting the energy consumption.
- and TXU continues to offer the free-nights plan, which is not a guarantee
No.
If you cancel the plan you will have to pay $1,500 to Tesla to remove the panels.
Rent Solar | Tesla
Tesla said:
It is at least transparent in the escape fee, but it's certainly not something you can give a try.
You don't have to pay $1500 to cancel but you would have to pay $1500 "If you want your system removed to restore your roof to its previous condition". Tesla could just just leave the panels installed and Tesla could continue collecting power production credits from the utility company.
Note that according to the subscription agreement (https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/CA_Energy_Subscription_Agreement_08132019.pdf) it seems that Tesla can remove the system at their discretion even if you don't request it:
I can't for the life of me figure how how these systems will work, until you have onsite battery storage at least the size of your car battery? unless I can charge my whole battery at home overnight, these systems don't seem to make much sense? paying .13 per kwh, and modeling tens of thousands to avoid that, just doesn't pencil?
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