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Tesla replacing ultrasonic sensors with Tesla Vision

All of us are perfectly capable of parking our cars. The point is that Tesla is taking away sensors that are accurate and work very well and replacing them with a technology that’s unproven and by Tesla’s own admission is unfinished.
I agree. It's a bit frustrating trying to navigate all the snide and sarcastic remarks. We know that people can park without park sensors. But modern cars are expected to offer driver assistance features. Especially at Tesla's pricepoint. Ultrasonic parking sensors have been around for decades and is cheap technology. I'm astonished that Tesla removed it without anything to replace it. Just promises of 'Tesla Vision'...
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
13,532
10,101
I think you’re missing my point, it wasn't aimed at Green specifically

These fragments of code quickly take on a life of their own and get projected into all sorts of hypotheses of what is imminent. As the expression goes, there’s no smoke without fire, but we get an awful lot of smoke from a few burning embers. Thats my beef. It's not that he finds a snippet of code, it's the cottage industry (usually by others) where features appearing in the next release are stated as fact which run rife with no more than some embedded code being seen, and the speculation of what it might mean, and that's where I have the issue.

How many times was blended braking said to be "in the next release"? I saw it being stated as fact that it was only LFP batteries, then not LFP batteries, 2021+ Model S, only certain countries, all pure guess work (albeit not by Green). Alternate routes in the sat nav was the same. It was a server side switch, you need to reboot, it's certain models, Ryzen MCU, by country, requires FSD, requires premium connectivity, you need to stand on one leg, all on websites claimimg to be authorative on the subject.

Green can share extracts of code, its what happens to that tiny morsal of information, and how long it become active that is the problem. If you still don't see the point I'm trying to make, or do but disagree, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I definitely agree with the above, which is why I put green's tweet directly instead of linking one of the dozens of articles out there that embellishes things and put it as if that update will have it user facing for sure. I said as much in my earlier response:
There are other articles that made it seem more than what he actually wrote (and without the caveats mentioned), but that is a problem with other content generators, not necessarily him.
 
... because it sometimes makes passengers nauseous or they get tired and annoyed when their head/body is being jerked forward.

Sorry, but that sounds like driver issue to me. I see this a lot from comments some drivers seem to be using the accelerator incorrectly.

You do not drive a car full accelerator then full brake with no bit in between, but this is how some must be driving with single peddle. The only difference is that the accelerator and most of the braking is combined into the single pedal function. In the same way that if you don’t want full acceleration you don’t press accelerator to the floor, if you don’t want full braking you don’t lift as hard.

It’s not a huge adjustment. It was one of the concerns that my wife had when we got ours, but it was mastered in a few minutes of braking. Braking is as smooth as silk. It’s like being driven by a chauffeur with years of experience.

Teslas mostly ‘single pedal’ driving is really well balanced. They may have their faults, but this isn’t one of them.
 

Battpower

Active Member
Supporting Member
Oct 10, 2019
2,514
2,569
Uk
Huh? Why because they had a hood ornament and curb feelers? Most cars back in the day you could hardly see the end of the hood lol. Maybe Tesla can bring back the hood ornament!
Depends on what part of the world you are talking about. In the UK / Europe I agree that the majority of cars had large areas of glass with small pillars and frames.

Meeting crash test requirements and maybe some 'form over function' has certainly reduced visibility in many cases.

In the US cars and trucks have obviously tended to be much bigger.
 
Huh? Why because they had a hood ornament and curb feelers? Most cars back in the day you could hardly see the end of the hood lol. Maybe Tesla can bring back the hood ornament!

The big change was from increased crash protection. If you remember driving the older cars, you could roll down the window and rest your arm on the window sill, the bottom of window was below shoulder level. Now, modern cars have a higher sill, at around shoulder level, that makes it uncomfortable to rest your arm on the sill.

This was done to protect the occupants from side collisions and has helped to reduce fatalities from accidents, but it did make visibility near the car worse. This led to the addition of cameras and ultrasonic sensors to give the driver more information while maneuvering in close quarters.
 
Huh? Why because they had a hood ornament and curb feelers? Most cars back in the day you could hardly see the end of the hood lol. Maybe Tesla can bring back the hood ornament!
It could be a statuette of Elon with his arms spread a la Leonardo DiCaprio in Titanic!

Agree- many cars of old had the long, boxy hoods with poorer sight lines. Even today many trucks and SUVs are similar. I’ve never driven any of the other models but my MY has very good sight lines.
 
One thing that makes me concerned for Tesla removing the sensors is how FSD seems to have trouble estimating when to stop for stop signs. Often it will brake quite forcefully 20 -30 feet before the sign then slowly creep up to the line. If it can’t accurately gauge that, how is it going to be accurate enough for parking?
 
You do not drive a car full accelerator then full brake with no bit in between, but this is how some must be driving with single peddle. The only difference is that the accelerator and most of the braking is combined into the single pedal function. In the same way that if you don’t want full acceleration you don’t press accelerator to the floor, if you don’t want full braking you don’t lift as hard.
Of course. Certainly I and most understand this. I try to be pretty cognizant of this when I have passengers. (also goes along with slowing nicely for corners).

Many people don't seem to have the muscle and foot control to do this smoothly. As well some passengers are very sensitive to being jostled around. I think you are disregarding things and just using your own personal experience. I was simply stating something that is very common and what you read about from.

Tesla also has the driving mode of chill for a reason. Manual: "Touch Controls > Pedals & Steering > Acceleration to choose a preferred acceleration mode: Chill limits acceleration for a slightly smoother and gentler ride."
 

Electroman

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2012
7,518
11,037
TX
One thing that makes me concerned for Tesla removing the sensors is how FSD seems to have trouble estimating when to stop for stop signs. Often it will brake quite forcefully 20 -30 feet before the sign then slowly creep up to the line. If it can’t accurately gauge that, how is it going to be accurate enough for parking?
Ultrasonics have nothing to do with estimating the distance to a Stop sign.

Ultrasonics are for very close objects less than a few feet apart, like a curb or a wall or a vehicle in the next lane close to you.
 

Electroman

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2012
7,518
11,037
TX
Sorry, but that sounds like driver issue to me. I see this a lot from comments some drivers seem to be using the accelerator incorrectly.

You do not drive a car full accelerator then full brake with no bit in between, but this is how some must be driving with single peddle. The only difference is that the accelerator and most of the braking is combined into the single pedal function. In the same way that if you don’t want full acceleration you don’t press accelerator to the floor, if you don’t want full braking you don’t lift as hard.

It’s not a huge adjustment. It was one of the concerns that my wife had when we got ours, but it was mastered in a few minutes of braking. Braking is as smooth as silk. It’s like being driven by a chauffeur with years of experience.

Teslas mostly ‘single pedal’ driving is really well balanced. They may have their faults, but this isn’t one of them.
Spot on. I can come to perfect smooth stop in almost all situations without having to jerk by removing the foot abruptly from the Go pedal. In fact I have driven many trips without touching the brakes at all, and only by controlling the Go pedal.
You just have to unlearn ICE driving and resist the urge to remove your foot from the Go pedal and learn to gently release it to come to a smooth stop. I probably use the brake pedal in my Tesla less than 10% of the time I would use in an ICE car. And if the regen is stronger, I can get the brake pedal application to only pure emergency situations (like someone cutting you off).
 

cgell

Member
Supporting Member
Jan 30, 2020
443
598
NJ
Ultrasonics have nothing to do with estimating the distance to a Stop sign.

Ultrasonics are for very close objects less than a few feet apart, like a curb or a wall or a vehicle in the next lane close to you.
I don’t think they were saying that USS is used for stop signs. I think the point was that if the camera system has trouble judging a large distance to a stop sign, how would they accurately judge even smaller distances using the cameras? I can understand that logic, but have hope that they will figure it out. It’s just a matter of when.
 
I don’t think they were saying that USS is used for stop signs. I think the point was that if the camera system has trouble judging a large distance to a stop sign, how would they accurately judge even smaller distances using the cameras? I can understand that logic, but have hope that they will figure it out. It’s just a matter of when.
Exactly.
 
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The question I have is what is being displayed visually in this scenario. When the car comes to a near stop 30 feet from the stop sign, does the visualization show the car at the stop line/sign? Or does the visualization show the car some distance away from the stop line/sign?

I'm wondering if this is more of a mapping issue - where the map the car has, in conjunction with GPS shows there is a stop sign closer than it really is.

The reason I bring this up is a logical one. If the cameras could not handle distance properly, in this case 30 feet off from where the real marker is, then wouldn't it be slamming into cars all over the place, as it can't judge distance to cars in front of it?
 

Supcom

Active Member
Oct 3, 2021
1,396
2,373
Texas
The question I have is what is being displayed visually in this scenario. When the car comes to a near stop 30 feet from the stop sign, does the visualization show the car at the stop line/sign? Or does the visualization show the car some distance away from the stop line/sign?

I'm wondering if this is more of a mapping issue - where the map the car has, in conjunction with GPS shows there is a stop sign closer than it really is.

The reason I bring this up is a logical one. If the cameras could not handle distance properly, in this case 30 feet off from where the real marker is, then wouldn't it be slamming into cars all over the place, as it can't judge distance to cars in front of it?
It's a planning issue. I have an intersection like this and about 50% of the time the car stops too early. Some times it doesn't actually stop early, but slows way down and crawls to the stop sign (no line on the road) and sometimes it does the right thing. It's not a visualization problem. It's planning. Some FSDb version are better than others, but it's been an issue for a while.
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
13,532
10,101
It's a planning issue. I have an intersection like this and about 50% of the time the car stops too early. Some times it doesn't actually stop early, but slows way down and crawls to the stop sign (no line on the road) and sometimes it does the right thing. It's not a visualization problem. It's planning. Some FSDb version are better than others, but it's been an issue for a while.
If it is like most things, the bit that controls the stop is hand coded. The perception is pretty much almost all NN based, but the other planning parts are still fairly rough because it is still hand coded.
 
I predict this will not go well. Musk is obsessed with how our brains receive and process information as the basis of replicating it, thereby creating AI. The inherent flaw in this is that our sensory inputs are (as good as they are) limited. Driving in low-visibility conditions is dangerous. Building a self-driving platform with the same inputs (visual information) and similar processing will have the same limitations. Ultrasonic sensors and RADAR exceed the capabilities of human sensory perceptions and as such, should automatically provide an advantage. I’m guessing this also has something to do with Tesla engineers having a hard time prioritizing which inputs (visual or USS) in the event of a conflict, so they’re going “back to basics” in an attempt to get it right. Maybe not the worst idea, but other automakers (Mercedes in particular) are starting to overtake Tesla in the autonomous driving arena by attacking that problem head-on , much as it pains me to say it.

Losing Andrej Karpathy earlier this year didn’t help Tesla’s efforts either.

I think Tesla is going to be struggling with FSD for quite a while and will have some serious issues with nighttime and low-visibility (fog, snowy, rainy) operations. Time will tell.
 
Losing Andrej Karpathy earlier this year didn’t help Tesla’s efforts either.
Andrej Karpathy speaking about this is what gave me confidence in the Tesla Vision and removal of uss. He is very much for full tesla vision and sees uss as 'bloat' and introduction of a lot of noise and errors. If anything he was one of the drivers to push tesla vision and cut uss from the way he talks about it.
He also seems to have very high praise for tesla and his work there. The reason he gives for leaving is that he does want to continue his work, and at tesla, he became an administrator and director (management). He did say he could easily go back to tesla at some point. There was no hint of negativity.

My fingers are crossed that the next update gives us back close quarters parking reference and improved self driving with less errors.
 

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