Tesla Semi

[MP3Mike]

True for independent contractors, but what about PepsiCo, UPS, Walmart, et al who would own the trailers and utilize them on a consistent basis? I just think the value add would potentially be tremendous. But it will take time to get out of the current mindset, I agree.

Time will tell.

I doubt it. Every pound you add to the trailer is a pound less freight they can haul.

Also I suspect that most Walmart/PepsiCo trips are significantly less than 500 miles, so there is no need.

There may be value in some long distance cases where the freight is light and it is time sensitive, but I would think that is rare.

 

[JRP3]

So how long will it take for Tesla, or someone like the manufacturers listed on the website below, to build a trailer specifically for use with the Tesla Semi? There are many advantages that a trailer could add to the semi, such as additional batteries, regenerative braking, and solar panels. Not to mention the trailer itself having it's own motors and steering allowing it to remotely controlled.

Top 25 Semi-Trailer Manufacturers - Metalphoto of Cincinnati

Take a look at our list of the top 25 semi-trailer manufacturers operating in North America today.

www.mpofcinci.com

All that adds cost and weight to the trailer, reducing the load carrying capacity and efficiency. Solar panels might make sense but I'm not sure any of the others would.

 

[wipster]

I doubt it. Every pound you add to the trailer is a pound less freight they can haul.

Also I suspect that most Walmart/PepsiCo trips are significantly less than 500 miles, so there is no need.

There may be value in some long distance cases where the freight is light and it is time sensitive, but I would think that is rare.

Having additional batteries under the trailer would add to the distance and load carrying capacity that could be driven/hauled, that's my point. As would regen brakes and solar panels.

We'll see if someone makes it and they come!

 

[JRP3]

Having additional batteries under the trailer would add to the distance and load carrying capacity

No it actually reduces the load capacity by adding additional weight that is not cargo.

 

[MP3Mike]

Having additional batteries under the trailer would add to the distance and load carrying capacity

It may increase distance but it reduces load carrying capacity... So they might have to make additional trips to haul the same freight.

 

[wipster]

It may increase distance but it reduces load carrying capacity...

Geez, think outside the box. There's a number of things increased battery capacity could do and not just for the tractor, especially if their are motors on the trailer too, which there would be if they utilized regen brakes.

Look at the e-Stream for ideas. Don't be limited to how things are, think of what they could be.

 

[MP3Mike]

Geez, think outside the box. There's a number of things increased battery capacity could do and not just for the tractor, especially if their are motors on the trailer too, which there would be if they utilized regen brakes.

Look at the e-Stream for ideas. Don't be limited to how things are, think of what they could be.

Can you provide an actual example of where it would help? Having regen wouldn't help, unless the tractor was regen limited. (i.e. you would otherwise have to use the brakes, which seems unlikely in normal driving.)

Here is an example: You have 200,000 lbs. of freight you need to haul 1,000 miles. The Semi weighs 20k lbs., the trailers weigh 12k lbs. So each trailer can haul 50k lbs of cargo. It will take 4 trips to get all your freight shipped. With the Tesla Semi it would require about an hour of charging during the haul. That would be about 72 man-hours of one-way driving, including the charging. If you have 4 Semi/trailer/driver combinations the freight would take ~18 hours to get there.

Now for your example you added an extra ~500 miles of battery capacity to the trailer, ~14k lbs., so now it will require 6 trips to move the freight. This would result in 102 man-hours of one-way driving, but with no charging stops. But to get all of the freight there in the same time, well actually an hour earlier, it would require:

• 6MWh of additional battery storage (~$600,000 of extra investment.)
• 2 extra Tesla Semis (~$400,000 of extra investment.)
• 2 extra trailers (~$100,000 of extra investment.)
• 2 extra drivers
• etc.

It just doesn't seem practical. But maybe my thinking is too inside the box, can you give me an outside the box example for where it would make sense?

Look at the e-Stream for ideas. Don't be limited to how things are, think of what they could be.

That doesn't seem like something Walmart/PepsiCo/UPS would be using, which is who you were suggesting might benefit.

 

[wipster]

Can you provide an actual example of where it would help? Having regen wouldn't help, unless the tractor was regen limited. (i.e. you would otherwise have to use the brakes, which seems unlikely in normal driving.)

Here is an example: You have 200,000 lbs. of freight you need to haul 1,000 miles. The Semi weighs 20k lbs., the trailers weigh 12k lbs. So each trailer can haul 50k lbs of cargo. It will take 4 trips to get all your freight shipped. With the Tesla Semi it would require about an hour of charging during the haul. That would be about 72 man-hours of one-way driving, including the charging. If you have 4 Semi/trailer/driver combinations the freight would take ~18 hours to get there.

Now for your example you added an extra ~500 miles of battery capacity to the trailer, ~14k lbs., so now it will require 6 trips to move the freight. This would result in 102 man-hours of one-way driving, but with no charging stops. But to get all of the freight there in the same time, well actually an hour earlier, it would require:

• 6MWh of additional battery storage (~$600,000 of extra investment.)
• 2 extra Tesla Semis
• 2 extra trailers
• 2 extra drivers
• etc.

It just doesn't seem practical. But maybe my thinking is too inside the box, can you give me an outside the box example for where it would make sense?

I didn't take the time to calculate every fracking thing like you just did in your specific scenario, i just put out some possibilities of what could be possible. If you disagree fine, but I'm not going to spend all night arguing with you.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[MP3Mike]

I didn't take the time to calculate every fracking thing like you just did, i just put out some possibilities of what could be possible.

No, you put out zero possibilities, and made false claims.

 

[JRP3]

Simple fact is tractor and trailer are limited to 82K lbs, period. Adding weight to the trailer in any form reduces the load it can carry, not increase it.

 

[wipster]

Simple fact is tractor and trailer are limited to 82K lbs, period. Adding weight to the trailer in any form reduces the load it can carry, not increase it.

If it's the just the tractor pulling it. What about the trailer providing the power to pull itself, with minimal effort by the tractor? That's what I'm describing and I apologize if I didn't make that clear. BEV tractors and battery power and storage period can open up a lot of possibilities. Read what the eStream will do, similar concept.

And that's enough, I am not going to argue with you about it.

 

[MP3Mike]

If it's the just the tractor pulling it. What about the trailer providing the power to pull itself, with minimal effort by the tractor? That's what I'm describing and I apologize if I didn't make that clear.

It would make no difference. Federal laws limit total weight of an electric Semi, the trailer, and freight combined to 82k lbs. It has nothing to do with the capability of pulling the weight, I'm sure the Tesla Semi could pull much more than 82k lbs. if it was legally allowed.

BEV tractors and battery power and storage period can open up a lot of possibilities. Read what the eStream will do, similar concept.

Can you provide just one example of some improvement that would apply to the Semi/trailer use case? (eStream seems completely unrelated, and would not apply to a Semi application.)

 

[JRP3]

If it's the just the tractor pulling it. What about the trailer providing the power to pull itself, with minimal effort by the tractor? That's what I'm describing and I apologize if I didn't make that clear.

I don't see how that changes anything. The weight limit is the same, no load carrying is added if you put more battery/weight on the trailer as opposed to the tractor, the math is still exactly the same.

 

[wipster]

Proof of concept:

Einride Trailer Comes With 350kWh Battery To Add 400 Miles Of Range

The Swedish freight technology company plans to have Einride Trailer production for initial piloting ready in 2023.

insideevs.com

 

[Electroman]

I don't see how that changes anything. The weight limit is the same, no load carrying is added if you put more battery/weight on the trailer as opposed to the tractor, the math is still exactly the same.

Please don't feed. Let it go

 

[jerry33]

I don't see how that changes anything. The weight limit is the same, no load carrying is added if you put more battery/weight on the trailer as opposed to the tractor, the math is still exactly the same.

Trucks and trailers are limited by two things: max weight or max volume. Some cargoes, such as furniture, are max volume but most are max weight. A max volume payload could potentially benefit. A max weight payload won’t unless the laws are changed—which isn’t likely because max weight is based on the road construction.

 

[MC3OZ]

An older but informative post from this dude:
View attachment 865753

What I find weird about this is there is no building I am aware of that can be used for assembly in Texas, unless assembly is fitting into the main building with Model Y and Cybertruck.

I don't think we are talking a major building project, but I'm also not aware of any plans being lodged, at least none that we know about.

Assuming building starts in early spring 2023, the factory could be up and ramping by the end of 2023.

I'm not convinced having the factory in Texas is a major advantage over Nevada, unless the Semi will use 4680s, or there are workforce issues in Nevada.

Given that Tesla can hit the required 500 miles range with 2170s, we then need to identify what additional benefits 4680s would deliver. IMO most likely is lower cost and possibly lower weight.

 

[JRP3]

Trucks and trailers are limited by two things: max weight or max volume. Some cargoes, such as furniture, are max volume but most are max weight. A max volume payload could potentially benefit. A max weight payload won’t unless the laws are changed—which isn’t likely because max weight is based on the road construction.

I saw a chart showing more than 90% of trucks are running below the max weight limit. If that's accurate there would be opportunities to increase range with more batteries in some situations. The question is how many situations need more range and would it make more sense to add batteries to the Semi or the trailer.

 

[Two-rocks]

It's logical to add the weight to the trailer - keeping the tractor a known quantity.
LTL is a thing, and profitable (few trucks operate at maximum load - overall).
Refrigerated cargo (uses diesel powered refrigerators attached to the trailer currently) would be another use case.
Another use case is a diesel powered refrigerated trailer, also charging the truck (hybrid if you will), or just a generator running on the trailer (BMW range extender).

Long term, autonomy will extend the time a driver can operate and/or eliminate them in certain situations where range will win the day. The autonomous trucks could slow down and save transport energy without human time limits (and human costs) in the way.

 

[jerry33]

I saw a chart showing more than 90% of trucks are running below the max weight limit. If that's accurate there would be opportunities to increase range with more batteries in some situations. The question is how many situations need more range and would it make more sense to add batteries to the Semi or the trailer.

90% is very likely but leaves out the use case for each truck (long haul, short haul cargo type, etc.) Also flexibility. If you are a freight company, you want to be able to be able to carry the max load whenever possible. If you can’t, it’s a lost opportunity.