....and contracts are written without any reference or oversight about maintenance. So it is not always the fault of contractors.
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Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Jhm, I think a 100kWh PowerPack was said to be rated at maximum output at 200kW (corresponding to a 2C discharge rate).
I think some calculations we're made about some projects being announced at "3MW" and it was concluded that would need 1,5MWhs of PowerPacks.
I think some calculations we're made about some projects being announced at "3MW" and it was concluded that would need 1,5MWhs of PowerPacks.
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
The Bloom has nowhere near the versatility of a battery: can't go from charge to discharge in the blink of an eye.
Actually it's not primarily a storage device but rather a (clever) pass-through technology that will for example turn Nat. Gas into electricity with a higher efficiency than a regular NG turbine power plant.
Boombox talks about their installations in the form of power processing capacity (kW or MW as with Yahoo's facility) not power storage capacity (kWh/MWh).
So not really comparable or rather not really competing for the same market.
You could put a Bloombox in front of your battery pack, if you have some inputs like Nat. Gas, liquid bio diesel, liquified coal (remember Audi's "new" invention?). But if you have solar, hydro, wind, nuclear, fusion or some such input the Bloombox is pointless.
It is fun to think about if batteries got say 2x or 3x more power density. At some point it would be viable to simply SHIP or TRUCK power around. Tanker ships and tanker cars for electricity. It would be an enormous boon to be able to ship say cheap, renewable geothermal from iceland and "unload" in England or Canada. Then really remote projects would be viable like tidal projects or remote wind/solar.
And obviously, the ships, trucks and trains could also run on their cargo.
And obviously, the ships, trucks and trains could also run on their cargo.
jhm
Well-Known Member
Wow, that is a lot of power for the money then, $125/kW. That is excellent for high frequency applications. I hope we can get confirmation. I was thinking 25 kW to 50 kW.
No, it is half the power of capacity. 100kWh would be 50KW of constant power, or less. This fits the need of the Sgip program in california which requires two hours of outputting at stated power rate. Come to think of it, some larger homes in the US would be better off with a 100kWh power pack over multiple powerwalls. Frequency response systems would be better off with specialized equipment offering 1C or higher micro output/charge cycles. Meaning charge a minute, discharge a minute, like that. Like driving in city traffic. But peak load shaving is sustained and either 1/2C or 1/4C.
jhm
Well-Known Member
Yeah, this is more like what I was thinking. So at 50 kW, we get a price of power at $500/kW.
So the 1 MW battery in the article below could run $500k for the battery and $500k for the other installation costs, for a combined cost of $1M. This frequency regulation application could pay for itself in 2 to 5 years, which suggests a 100% ROI in 10 years or less. So with that sort of return, the big risk is that the frequency market gets saturated too quickly with batteries and drive down the market price for this grid service. It that happens, it's nice to know you could potentially redeploy your Powerpacks to better markets if saturation kills return. Although if competitors deploy packs incrementally until the return is less attractive than other opportunities, then the market can saturate without without over supply.
Battery Storage Payback Takes Only a Few Years in PJM, SC Finds : Greentech Media
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This market has many more dimensions than I realized. I am load shaving for hours at 1kW and there are utility level grid application that are dealing in hundreds of megaWatts for only a few minutes.
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I really don't think saturation would be a factor in any market for awhile. There is so much demand they are only responding to people who also want to be dealers for the batteries (I have not heard any analyst discuss this upcoming Tesla Dealer Network) It seems very unlikely that any market would give enough power packs to completely shift the cost curve. Although I concede that over a 10 year stretch that might not be the case. Hopefully by then they can actually meet battery demand so maybe you would have massive changes in TOU charges or demand charges. In the mean time Tesla would have to sell A LOT of batteries for that to happen. If they avoid shipping a huge percentage of orders to any one area it should avoid this happening for a long time. After the Oncor report in Texas the amount of batteries that Utilities across the Nation will want to order will be staggering.
I bet that as soon as they get the Gigafactory operating enough to believe they can hit the mark they are planning for they will announce at least one more Gigafactory. Exciting times!
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Thanks for correcting me. So it's not 2C but 2^-1 C (1/2 C) for sustained discharge. I had it twisted in my first post. It could still be that the packs could give higher peak power but not for sustained periods of time. If we can get firm confirmation on these specifications it will be important, since in the news some projects will be specified in power output (kW) while others will be specified in storage capacity (kWh).
Johann Koeber
Happy Owner
I was thinking about just that.
No luxurious home, but 30 kW solar. Add the powerpack and we might get through 300 days per year. Some winter months we might need the grid. But our draw from the grid will be minimal and more than offset by delivery to the grid in summer.
Offgrid doesn't seem possible for us without another form of generation.
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
If you could manage 75% of the year on solar alone and then in the remaining winter months solar would contribute but not be enough then having a (bio)diesel or nat. gas generator for the remainder might be acceptable. It would result in a total off grid solution.
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Yeah that was my thinking but they may have designed both the in/out wiring (it's probably the same wiring) and cooling to cap discharge rate at about max charge rate. And we know that max charge is always quite a bit lower than max discharge rate likely also has to do with life of the batteries, warranty, cycling capacity and so forth.
Have you seen the web site for the california SgIP program? Self-Generation Incentive Program
The spreadsheet there, for weekly projects,lists out AES projects. For most 1MW projects, the eligible costs are well above $1000/W. And the incentives are enormous. $1.75/W of power for current projects and it was more in the past. A 100KW project gets $60,000 in incentive money in recent line items and that is low compared to prior projects. This is why the 100kWh-50KW price at $25K is shocking. It becomes free in CA for the battery components of the system. Unless the new Powerpack dwarfs the savings of the prior systems designs, the balance of the system costs for a site are well above equal to the price of batteries. Maybe the power pack is just that, batteries and BMS. Then you add more to it like good charge inverters and output DC to AC inverters and other work. Labor and government filings and all that raise prices too.
anyone think that the $25K price of the power pack is "after incentives"? I think it is the cost to the installer company, not the end user. Just as powerwall cost to installer is 3000-3500. It just seems extremely good, almost selling the batteries at cost plus the price of the cabinet. Selling something at cost into a highly incentivized market seems a little out of place in today's capitalistic world. Has there been any talk of margins on the powerpack? One interesting part of this new business is nobody has seen the details of a real project cost breakdown and profit components going to the installer and the vendors involved. The danger here is that we are looking at only one component of a larger deployment. The price of batteries has been one thing holding utilities back from doing more Li-Ion demand response systems and now the fit does seem to be better as peak load shaving devices for hot states like CA and AZ. The primary problem there is air conditioner load ramp up across the region when it gets hot.
$25k wouldn't get a home setup for batteries. Full system would be more costly, but not much more - maybe $35k. You need something like the Schneider XW or XW+ inverter, some sort of charge controller for the grid signal to let the solar actually work off grid, and if some loads are big, like air conditioning, possibly another second schneider to handle that. They are about $3k each. So, to take a suburban home completely off grid, it is something on the order of $50-55k with all the solar included. Anyone ever do a system before and know the details? One member here from PA was posting saying he had clients waiting on powerwall to take themselves off the grid. Is that still happening given the specs on the powerwall? Or would you use a powerpack?
larger suburban homes use about 1500-2000 kWh a month if they have electric hot water and kids who like to take long showers, who use washers and driers and cook a few times per week and use comfortable AC in the summer. That sounds like a job for the powerpack. One concern I have is battery longevity over 10 years and a larger battery makes more sense to cycle 30% daily and not 80%. I would much rather have a Model S 85kWh battery installed under a sub floor or crawl space than four or five power walls mounted for display. A single MS battery would be fine for a home off grid solution. And I think some guys have bought salvage crashed MS to do just that. I also think that V2H (Vehicle to Home) also known as V2G should be a solution Tesla provides leadership on in the near term. People really do not need elaborate new battery storage systems if they already have a giant 85kWh battery, or two, in the garage. The inverse of HPWC is needed. Something to step down the HV battery to 48V for use by home AC inverters such as the schneider I mentioned. A HPWI, or high power wall inverter, would do that, connected to the schneider as its output. For standby only, to start, but could be smarter eventually to handle two way charge and discharge.
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