I was on a day trip, and we were sight seeing. I didn't spend more than half an hour at the house.
4.5 years ago I was driving a Volt, and I would never have considered an all electric without the Superchargers.
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Tesla Supercharger network
- Thread starter dsm363
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I was on a day trip, and we were sight seeing. I didn't spend more than half an hour at the house.
4.5 years ago I was driving a Volt, and I would never have considered an all electric without the Superchargers.
Anyone else think the new push on superchargers might be a next generation with the ability for faster charge rates on new battery chemistry and/or ability to charge self driving cars without driver to plug the vehicle in. This would certainly make the end of 2017 cross country self driving demo even more impressive.
ccutrer
Active Member
Heh, prior to owning a Tesla I often scouted the prospect of adding a 14-50 when I visited somewhere I might return to. Even though I had no timeline of getting a Tesla. One of them has a Zinsco panel.... I think I'll just use the in-town supercharger now (which didn't exist then), rather than touch that sucker, and risk any liability.
The odds are low that the new chemistry that will be used for the 2170s will have any better charge rates. There are about 8 factors weighed in a rechargable battery chemistry and charge rate is lower priority over other factors like life of the cell, energy density, and safety.
I expect the charge rates for the 2170s is not going to be much better than the current 18650s. I expect the rate is going to be pretty much the same as it is now. On the pack level, the Model 3 will probably charge a little slower because of the smaller pack size, just like the smaller pack sized Model S/X charge slower now.
The Model S/X are going to continue to use 18650 cells for a while as all 2170 production is targeted for the Model 3 and stationary storage (with two different chemistries). I expect the Model S/X will get the 2170 eventually, but it won't be until there is extra 2170 production capacity.
Additionally the faster supercharging goes, the more energy is wasted. Supercharging today is less efficient than slow charging at home. Going even faster will generate more heat, which is energy lost to the environment.
For supercharger improvements, I think Tesla is more concerned about reliability than faster charge times. When working properly the superchargers are fast enough for most people's needs now. In high use areas, especially in warmer climates, Tesla has had a lot of reliability problems.
Last summer and into the fall a lot of superchargers in California were running slow. According to a tech I met at the Manteca, CA supercharger, it was damage from heat build up. The problem is worse when the ambient air temperature is high, but it can happen anytime. What happens is when superchargers get constant use with no time to cool down between uses, heat builds up in the components and they begin to degrade. Then the supercharger delivers slower charge rates, regardless of the temperature of when the last use was. This tech said they spent a lot of time replacing damaged parts on California superchargers. He said superchargers that get less use don't have the problems.
Once the Model 3 is out there more superchargers around the world will be seeing use patterns like California SCs have been seeing and Tesla is painfully aware of this problem. I expect their supercharger engineering team has been focused on solving these problems over any others for the last year or so. Faster supercharging will just make the overheating problems worse so I don't think we will see faster superchargers until they have a better solution for overheating, if we ever see faster super chargers.
While there were SCs four years ago, they were only in CA so they didn't do me much good--California being further than I can go on one charge. However, RV parks worked just fine, and it wasn't too long after that that there were nice owners on PlugShare.
What you write makes complete sense. Thanks for such a long and thorough answer. Despite making sense, Tesla did increase the supercharging speed last July:
Tesla quietly upgraded its Superchargers for faster charging, now capable of 145 kW
Also, an Elon tweet to Fred from Electrek implied we would see vastly faster superchargers in v3:
Elon Musk on Twitter
Based on what you said, how is that possible?
It's probably to support the 100KWh packs. The more cells you have, the faster you can supercharge. Each cell is charging at the same rate as the older packs, but the overall pack is able to take more energy because there are more cells. I note the article is from last July and the 100 pack came out last fall. Tesla was being quiet about why they upped the power.
Elon has said that the 100 pack is about the highest they are going to go for a while and he has also said that more 18650s just can't be shoehorned into the pack. So the current supercharging tech is enough for what we have today and expected in the near term future.
Tesla has pushed things out ahead of what I thought possible before, so I could be wrong, but I suspect Tesla is working quietly on a solid state battery. There are 3-4 different labs that have said they have working prototypes and the technology looks promising. With a solid state electrolyte, you don't have the dendrite problem you get in llithium cells with a liquid electrolyte. Dendrites are li-ion crystals that grow in the electrolyte and when they get big enough, they cause a short followed by a fire. They can grow in li-ion cells too, but they can be better controlled which reduces fire risk.
With a solid state electrolyte, dendrites can't grow.and you can go back to solid lithium for the anode. This allows much higher energy density combined with much higher safety. With liquid electrolyte batteries, they catch fire if you crush them, but with solid electrolytes, you can puncture the battery with little risk of fire and it is highly resistant to crushing.
Some of the lab testing is also showing that solid state lithium rechargables can also be charged faster than li-ion cells and they are much easier and cheaper to make. The GigaFactory would be able to make as much as 10X the cells planned to be made there now.
This is probably one of the reasons the mainstream car industry is dragging its feet about mass producing EVs. There is a lot of political resistance within the companies, but technologically it looks like solid state lithium batteries will be here within around 10 years and the companies don't want to invest too much in li-ion tech only to switch to the newer tech later. Tesla accepts this as a cost of doing business.
It is possible that Tesla is secretly ahead of everyone in the race to the solid state battery. Elon has said in interviews when asked about some wonder battery tech that was in the news that most people who came up with a provable new battery tech would come to Tesla first because they use more batteries than anyone. He didn't say it, but from his confidence in his answer, it is possible somebody already has approached Tesla with a new solid state technology and Tesla is working to perfect it.
The effort they are putting into getting the li-ion lines going at the GigaFactory and Elon's comment that they 100 KWh pack is it for a while indicate Tesla is not close enough to production on a solid state solution to hold anything up. but it could be technology that will go into production in 2019-2020. Elon has also said that the S/X will get all new technology first and it will only go into the mass produced cars when it is proven. That could mean a massive jump in battery pack size around 2020 for the S/X and these packs might be able to supercharge at 500 KW or so, but could have a range of 1000 miles.
This could also be the battery tech they are slotting for the semi. I was thinking that the battery tech just wasn't there to support a fully electric long haul truck yet, but a solid state battery pack with massive superchargers at truck stops would enable long range electric trucks to move about with ease. They are announcing the semi this fall, but it probably won't be ready for production for 2-3 years by which time the new battery tech might be in production. If this is the case, the V3 superchargers might be for semis only.
If Tesla does get solid state batteries into production by 2020, they will rule the industry for a generation at least. Other companies will quickly follow suit, but they will have such a head start in quantities produced it will be hard to keep up.
AMPd
Well-Known Member
I doubt it.
They need to solve the current problem of some superchargers not even being able to deliver the advertised 120kw
Here is an update on the status of "Coming Soon" superchargers. There are by my count 283 on the Find Us page which claim to have a target opening date in 2017. Below is a list of the 26 sites for which we have information or at least rumors on their location.
Just for fun, below are the remaining 257 sites for which we need to sleuth out information:
Athens AL, Montgomery AL, Oxford AL, Steele AL, Phoenix AZ, Tucson AZ, Willcox AZ, Baker CA, Bakersfield II CA, Calabasas CA, Carlsbad CA, Commerce CA, Concord CA, Corona CA, Culver City II CA, Cupertino CA, Daly City CA, Denver II CA, Downey CA, Dublin II CA, El Cajon CA, Emeryville CA, Fairfield CA, Folsom III CA, Fresno II CA, Glendale CA, Hayward CA, Hesperia CA, Hollywood CA, Irvine CA, La Jolla CA, Lake Elsinore CA, Laytonville CA, Lone Pine II CA, Long Beach CA, Marin City CA, Napa II CA, Northridge CA, Palm Desert CA, Pasadena CA, Petaluma II CA, Pomona CA, Redding CA, Rocklin II CA, Roseville II CA, Sacramento CA, Salinas CA, San Bernardino CA, San Clemente CA, San Felipe CA, San Francisco (Financial Dist) CA, San Francisco (Mission) CA, San Francisco (SOMA) CA, San Jose CA, San Luis Obispo CA, San Mateo (Hillsdale) CA, San Mateo II CA, San Rafael CA, San Ramon CA, Santa Barbara CA, Santa Clarita CA, Santa Cruz CA, Santa Monica CA, Sherman Oaks CA, Stockton CA, Sunnyvale CA, Thousand Oaks CA, Vallejo CA, Vista CA, Yermo CA, Alamosa CO, Aspen CO, Boulder CO, Estes Park CO, Lone Tree II CO, Pancho Springs CO, Danbury CT, Darien III CT, North Stamford CT, Old Lyme CT, Stamford CT, Torrington CT, Trumbull CT, West Hartford II CT, Washington DC, Rehoboth Beach DE, Altamont Springs FL, Aventura FL, Boca Raton FL, Fort Myers FL, Live Oak FL, Miami (Brickell) FL, Miami (Wynwood) FL, Orlando FL, Sarasota FL, St. Petersburg FL, West Melbourne FL, West Palm Beach FL, Atlanta III GA, Buford GA, Madison GA, Honolulu HI, Altoona IA, Dows IA, Shelby IA, Sioux City IA, Chicago (Lincoln Park) IL, Chicago (New East Side) IL, Chicago III IL, Fort Wayne IN, Colby KS, New Orleans LA, Beverly MA, Boston MA, Braintree MA, Leominster MA, Lynnfield MA, Mansfield MA, Natick MA, Orleans MA, Seekonk MA, Wareham MA, Beltsville MD, Gaithersburg MD, Grasonville MD, Halethorpe MD, La Vale MD, National Harbor MD, Freeport ME, Auburn Hills MI, Lansing MI, Livonia MI, Ludington MI, Marshall MI, St. Clair Shores MI, Traverse City MI, Alexandria MN, Minneapolis MN, Rochester MN, Kansas City MO, Osage Beach MO, St. Louis MO, Grenada MS, Hattiesburg MS, Greensboro NC, Raleigh NC, Fargo ND, North Conway NH, Barnegat Township NJ, Florence NJ, Hackensack NJ, Jersey City NJ, Mount Laurel NJ, Newark NJ, Paramus NJ, Parsippany-Troy Hills NJ, Woodbridge NJ, Deming NM, Socorro NM, Truth or Consequences NM, Stateline NV, Brooklyn (Williamsburg) NY, Brooklyn II NY, Clinton Corners NY, Hicksville NY, Islandia NY, Lower Manhattan NY, Manhattan (Midtown) NY, Manhattan III NY, Manorville NY, Queens NY, Yonkers NY, Cambridge OH, Toledo OH, Boardman OR, Portland OR, Springfield II OR, Tigard OR, Breezewood PA, Falls Creek PA, King of Prussia PA, North Huntingdon PA, Philadelphia PA, West Middlesex PA, Charleston SC, Florence SC, Sioux Falls SD, Cookeville TN, Dickson TN, Nashville II TN, Austin (Downtown) TX, Dilley TX, Fort Worth TX, Fredericksburg TX, Grapevine TX, Houston II TX, Italy TX, Laredo TX, McAllen TX, Nacogdoches TX, Pecos TX, Plano TX, San Antonio TX, Wichita Falls TX, Fairfax VA, Richmond VA, Tysons VA, Arlington WA, Bellevue WA, Lynnwood WA, Okanogan WA, Olympia WA, Seattle WA, Sequim WA, Snowqualmie WA, Wenatchee WA, Madison II WI, Milwaukee WI, Oshkosh WI, Sturgeon Bay WI, Beckley WV, Weston WV, Laramie WY, Rawlins WY, Wheatland WY, Calgary AB, Edmonton AB, Nanaimo BC, Sicamous BC, Tsawwassen BC, Vancouver BC, Barrie II ON, Belleville ON, Cambridge ON, Concord ON, Hamilton ON, Markham ON, Mississauga (Meadowvale) ON, Mississauga II ON, North York ON, Ottawa ON, Owen Sound ON, Pickering ON, Renfrew ON, St. Catherines ON, Stardale ON, Sudbury ON, Toronto ON, Vaughan ON, Brossard QC, Drummondville QC, Laval QC, LΘvis QC, Point-Claire QC, Saguenay QC, Saint Therese QC, Trois-Rivieres QC
| Location | Site Known? | Status |
| Little Rock, AR | yes | under construction |
| Fremont, CA | yes | under construction hiatus |
| Florida City, FL | yes | under construction |
| Bolingbrook, IL | yes | under construction |
| Rolling Meadows, IL | yes | in permitting |
| Aberdeen, MD | yes | construction imminent |
| North East, MD | yes | construction imminent |
| Tupelo, MS | yes | awaiting power on / testing |
| Statesville, NC | yes | in permitting |
| Wilmington, NC | yes | under construction |
| Sidney, NE | yes | awaiting testing |
| Erwin, NY | yes | in permitting |
| New Rochelle, NY | yes | in permitting |
| Rochester (Victor), NY | yes | under construction |
| Bellefonte, PA | maybe | unknown |
| Bristol, TN | yes | under construction |
| Austin (North Loop), TX | yes | under construction |
| Dallas, TX | yes | in permitting |
| Flatonia, TX | yes | awaiting power on / testing |
| Fort Stockton, TX | maybe | in permitting |
| Charlottesville, VA | yes | in permitting |
| Green Bay (Howard), WI | yes | in permitting |
| Charleston, WV | yes | under construction |
| Morgantown, WV | yes | in permitting |
| Evanston, WY | maybe | unknown |
| Rock Springs, WY | yes | in permitting |
Just for fun, below are the remaining 257 sites for which we need to sleuth out information:
Athens AL, Montgomery AL, Oxford AL, Steele AL, Phoenix AZ, Tucson AZ, Willcox AZ, Baker CA, Bakersfield II CA, Calabasas CA, Carlsbad CA, Commerce CA, Concord CA, Corona CA, Culver City II CA, Cupertino CA, Daly City CA, Denver II CA, Downey CA, Dublin II CA, El Cajon CA, Emeryville CA, Fairfield CA, Folsom III CA, Fresno II CA, Glendale CA, Hayward CA, Hesperia CA, Hollywood CA, Irvine CA, La Jolla CA, Lake Elsinore CA, Laytonville CA, Lone Pine II CA, Long Beach CA, Marin City CA, Napa II CA, Northridge CA, Palm Desert CA, Pasadena CA, Petaluma II CA, Pomona CA, Redding CA, Rocklin II CA, Roseville II CA, Sacramento CA, Salinas CA, San Bernardino CA, San Clemente CA, San Felipe CA, San Francisco (Financial Dist) CA, San Francisco (Mission) CA, San Francisco (SOMA) CA, San Jose CA, San Luis Obispo CA, San Mateo (Hillsdale) CA, San Mateo II CA, San Rafael CA, San Ramon CA, Santa Barbara CA, Santa Clarita CA, Santa Cruz CA, Santa Monica CA, Sherman Oaks CA, Stockton CA, Sunnyvale CA, Thousand Oaks CA, Vallejo CA, Vista CA, Yermo CA, Alamosa CO, Aspen CO, Boulder CO, Estes Park CO, Lone Tree II CO, Pancho Springs CO, Danbury CT, Darien III CT, North Stamford CT, Old Lyme CT, Stamford CT, Torrington CT, Trumbull CT, West Hartford II CT, Washington DC, Rehoboth Beach DE, Altamont Springs FL, Aventura FL, Boca Raton FL, Fort Myers FL, Live Oak FL, Miami (Brickell) FL, Miami (Wynwood) FL, Orlando FL, Sarasota FL, St. Petersburg FL, West Melbourne FL, West Palm Beach FL, Atlanta III GA, Buford GA, Madison GA, Honolulu HI, Altoona IA, Dows IA, Shelby IA, Sioux City IA, Chicago (Lincoln Park) IL, Chicago (New East Side) IL, Chicago III IL, Fort Wayne IN, Colby KS, New Orleans LA, Beverly MA, Boston MA, Braintree MA, Leominster MA, Lynnfield MA, Mansfield MA, Natick MA, Orleans MA, Seekonk MA, Wareham MA, Beltsville MD, Gaithersburg MD, Grasonville MD, Halethorpe MD, La Vale MD, National Harbor MD, Freeport ME, Auburn Hills MI, Lansing MI, Livonia MI, Ludington MI, Marshall MI, St. Clair Shores MI, Traverse City MI, Alexandria MN, Minneapolis MN, Rochester MN, Kansas City MO, Osage Beach MO, St. Louis MO, Grenada MS, Hattiesburg MS, Greensboro NC, Raleigh NC, Fargo ND, North Conway NH, Barnegat Township NJ, Florence NJ, Hackensack NJ, Jersey City NJ, Mount Laurel NJ, Newark NJ, Paramus NJ, Parsippany-Troy Hills NJ, Woodbridge NJ, Deming NM, Socorro NM, Truth or Consequences NM, Stateline NV, Brooklyn (Williamsburg) NY, Brooklyn II NY, Clinton Corners NY, Hicksville NY, Islandia NY, Lower Manhattan NY, Manhattan (Midtown) NY, Manhattan III NY, Manorville NY, Queens NY, Yonkers NY, Cambridge OH, Toledo OH, Boardman OR, Portland OR, Springfield II OR, Tigard OR, Breezewood PA, Falls Creek PA, King of Prussia PA, North Huntingdon PA, Philadelphia PA, West Middlesex PA, Charleston SC, Florence SC, Sioux Falls SD, Cookeville TN, Dickson TN, Nashville II TN, Austin (Downtown) TX, Dilley TX, Fort Worth TX, Fredericksburg TX, Grapevine TX, Houston II TX, Italy TX, Laredo TX, McAllen TX, Nacogdoches TX, Pecos TX, Plano TX, San Antonio TX, Wichita Falls TX, Fairfax VA, Richmond VA, Tysons VA, Arlington WA, Bellevue WA, Lynnwood WA, Okanogan WA, Olympia WA, Seattle WA, Sequim WA, Snowqualmie WA, Wenatchee WA, Madison II WI, Milwaukee WI, Oshkosh WI, Sturgeon Bay WI, Beckley WV, Weston WV, Laramie WY, Rawlins WY, Wheatland WY, Calgary AB, Edmonton AB, Nanaimo BC, Sicamous BC, Tsawwassen BC, Vancouver BC, Barrie II ON, Belleville ON, Cambridge ON, Concord ON, Hamilton ON, Markham ON, Mississauga (Meadowvale) ON, Mississauga II ON, North York ON, Ottawa ON, Owen Sound ON, Pickering ON, Renfrew ON, St. Catherines ON, Stardale ON, Sudbury ON, Toronto ON, Vaughan ON, Brossard QC, Drummondville QC, Laval QC, LΘvis QC, Point-Claire QC, Saguenay QC, Saint Therese QC, Trois-Rivieres QC
Thanks for the list, @emupilot. From the misspellings, it looks like you compiled the list shortly after Tesla unveiled the list of upcoming towns. You might want to update the list as there have been several corrections made on upcoming list of Supercharger locations since then. I know they corrected Poncha Springs, CO after I pointed out it had been spelled incorrectly twice on the original list. Other posters pointed out a few other errors with their initial list so hopefully they have been corrected as well.
cpa
Active Member
I think (emphasis, think) that up to 1/6th of these sites are going to be expansions of current locations. For example, Rocklin II listed above. The current Superchargers are at Tesla's facility in Rocklin. It does not make sense to install additional stalls a short distance away when Tesla can install them at a location they own or lease. Discovery of an expansion like this will be evident to the first person to arrive and see a bunch of construction equipment.
Similarly, many of the "fill-in" locations like Thousand Oaks or Glendale will likely be found by serendipity, and quite possibly well after construction has started.
Sure, some locations like Baker, CA are an easy off and easy on to the interstate, and will easily be spotted by one of the many sleuths who frequent I15 between LA and Vegas.
Similarly, many of the "fill-in" locations like Thousand Oaks or Glendale will likely be found by serendipity, and quite possibly well after construction has started.
Sure, some locations like Baker, CA are an easy off and easy on to the interstate, and will easily be spotted by one of the many sleuths who frequent I15 between LA and Vegas.
franklandfield
Member
I know how to see how many cars are charging at a station on the car touchscreen, but how do you see that info on the phone app?!
I can't figure it out!!!!!!!!!! Can anybody explain it?!?!
The car's touchscreen is the only place to see that information at the moment.
Initially wk057 was using hacked cars and a script to add it to a website, but Tesla asked him to stop, and gave him technical/business reasons that he said convinced him, though he didn't explain.
Tesla may make the information available elsewhere at some point, but I wouldn't bet on it.
franklandfield
Member
Bet TSLA
Active Member
I wrote that in February and I don't think we're any closer to solving this puzzle. Tesla has reiterated their intentions to double the number of North American supercharger locations more than once since then, but they're falling further behind the pace every day -- it's day 133 and I see only 21 new superchargers opened in North America this year. So what's going to change? It has to be something to make the process fundamentally faster. They can't build another 340 superchargers this year in North America using their current process. And even if they built every single one of their "Coming Soon" sites it wouldn't be enough. And quite a few of them are expansions, which I don't think count towards doubling "locations".
Tesla has control over its own stuff. They can improve the equipment, optimize the installation process, and simplify their requirements. They can even make negotiations simpler by the application of money and assigning more people. But I still don't see anything they can do to speed up permitting and utility work other than work more of them in parallel.
So Tesla doesn't have stupid people working for them, and I can't see them making wild promises that have no hope of fulfillment. So presuming that they are going to do what they say they are going to do, how will they achieve it? Any theories? WAGs? Imaginings?
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
Elon's more recent talks specified large supercharger locations, one image (see below) showed a location that looked like it would have 100+ supercharger stalls. The goal isn't to increase the number of locations like you are/were expecting. The goal is to massively increase the density where needed to alieviate/prevent lines. I'm sure new locations will be part of the mix, just know that locations is not the number that Tesla is focusing on as a primary target, number of stalls is.
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Bet TSLA
Active Member
It's not a matter of what I was expecting. It's what was said: North America, double, locations (see here). If you believe that the answer to the puzzle is that they aren't going to do what they said, but do something else instead, then please at least link to something stating this. Large locations are more difficult to permit, build, and provision. They are also completely inappropriate for most places on their map.
There's a reason I wrote "presuming that they are going to do what they say they are going to do". I'd like to understand whether it's possible. Not whether something else might be what they're doing. For doubling locations, large installations are just a distraction and an added difficulty, not a solution.
Perhaps Tesla's definition of a 'location" is different than your interpretation? Who knows. Maybe what you call a location, they call a site, and what you call a "stall", they call a location?
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