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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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@KarenRei I generally agree. The thing is there large range this year because of all the variables: timing of low cost M3, international expansion, tariffs, recession / no recession, Shanghai factory timing, etc. This is going to easily lead to a +- 100K. So 400-600k is a very fair range. Tesla legal, financial, etc. leans conservative, so 400k, while rebel Musk be like 600k easy peasy... And we know the rest. Even now, it's hard to estimate, but I'd say 500k is very doable since they released the Kraken (aka base M3).
 
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That's why a Pravduh-type website would be a super-important and useful effort. Just a simple list of which analyst / CNBC talking head etc. said what and when about Tesla, and how soon after Tesla proved they were talking out their backsides. Table-style. Searchable by date, name, etc. And that website would then be super-easy to link to whenever the above analysts / talking heads make further pronouncements.

Get to it!
 
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@KarenRei I generally agree. The thing is there large range this year because of all the variables: timing of low cost M3, international expansion, tariffs, recession / no recession, Shanghai factory timing, etc. This is going to easily lead to a +- 100K. So 400-600k is a very fair range. Tesla legal, financial, etc. leans conservative, so 400k, while rebel Musk be like 600k easy peasy... And we know the rest. Even now, it's hard to estimate, but I'd say 500k is a very doable since they released the Kraken (aka base M3).

IMHO, it really depends on what they can squeeze out of Fremont, and when. They seem to be getting close to 7k. Vicki seemed to think it'd be hard to squeeze any more out of paint. But of course, Musk usually resorts to out-of-left-field solutions. E.g. nobody was counting on a new GA line just springing to life almost overnight in a tent either ;)
 
I think SR is different with diff seats, and SR+ and MR are the same; software limited range, software limited audio (no subwoofer), limited maps. You will be able to pay up your upgrade later...
Wow, so you're thinking both the MR and SR+ could be software limited versions of LR and can be upgrade later?

BTW, I've been thinking about the value software limited batteries could have for leases. A particular risk of leasing or renting is that the battery will be abused as the lessee does not have a in interest in the residual value of the battery. Software limiting can protect the battery from excessive overcharging or running SOC to low. So it protect the residual value of the leased vehicle. Additionally, the returned vehicle can be sold as a full range vehicle. So the residual value is actually determined by that of the full range vehicle, not the software limited version. So these are some unique opportunities for a lease contract that can appropriately value these advantages.
 
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I literally paid for FSD today when I saw the price decrease to $4k CAD. I’d be happy to do it again.

On that note, here's what I've gleaned from other threads regarding why my FSD upgrade cost dropped--Tesla is doing a few things for prior 3 buyers to ease the transition to the new prices:

-2018 buyers can add AP upgrades at the original cost (eg $3k for my FSD upgrade)
-2019 buyers that did not buy EAP will get it for free
-2019 buyers that did buy EAP but not FSD will get FSD for free
-I have not seen what is happening for 2019 buyers who bought both EAP and FSD
 
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I'm going to throw out what I suspect a number of people are thinking:

  • 350-500k Model 3s sold was Musk's typical overoptimism - which unsurprisingly came out in the call.
  • 300-400k total vehicles produced was a conservative, easy-to-beat plan that they had intended to lay out instead after talking Musk down.
  • Nobody bothered to call Musk out - either on the call, or afterwards - leaving the discrepancy in the public record.
  • After Musk tweeted the "about 500k cars produced" tweet:
    • Musk's attorney insisted on sticking with the conservative plan, filed in the earnings report. I presume there was more liability risk for deviating from it than from Musk's statements in the call.
  • When the SEC decided to "make an example of Musk" over the "500k cars produced" tweet:
    • Musk decided to double down on the 350-500k numbers as a way to undercut the SEC, because he has an excuse (the earnings call), and because he secretly thinks he can pull it off (or at least get into the range)
  • I wouldn't be surprised if the SR launch was pushed up somewhat in order to max out annual production.
    • That's not necessarily a bad thing.
    • Production capacity for the SR and all of these variants didn't appear out of thin-air; they've clearly been readying for this launch for a long time, even if they did move it forward (which is far from certain).

Bingo. I think that's close. I get a little more negative in my analysis but I'll keep it to myself.
 
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On that note, here's what I've gleaned from other threads regarding why my FSD upgrade cost dropped--Tesla is doing a few things for prior 3 buyers to ease the transition to the new prices:

-2018 buyers can add AP upgrades at the original cost (eg $3k for my FSD upgrade)
-2019 buyers that did not buy EAP will get it for free
-2019 buyers that did buy EAP but not FSD will get FSD for free
-I have not seen what is happening for 2019 buyers who bought both EAP and FSD

I just checked my model 3 account. Originally bought without EAP. Now it is $4k to add AP plus another $7k to add FSD.
 
demand is going to be huge for the $37k version. With the take rate of autopilot rumored to be around 30-40% since the price drop, the average selling price will be higher.
Here's how a commonly-ordered budget Model 3 SR price shakes out:
(as of Feb 28, 2019)

3S+ $37K
A/P $3K
Paint: $1K
Wheels: $1K
Tot ASP: $42K​

Elon Musk Apr 1, 2016: "Selling price w avg option mix prob $42k"

Elon.tweet.2016-04-01.Model3ASP.42K.w.options.png


"Oh FO-SHO, total fraud! Called the bloody SEC." /S

TSLAQ ESADS.
 
I'm going to throw out what I suspect a number of people are thinking:

  • Nobody bothered to call Musk out - either on the call, or afterwards - leaving the discrepancy in the public record.
This is not exactly true. From the CC:

Emmanuel Rosner

Okay. And, I guess, my follow-up would be on the demand side. So you're talking about 50% increase this year. You said a few times that it could be higher than this. I think you just mentioned in the previous question 350,000 to 500,000, if I understood well. So what is sort of like what drives the cautious outlook that's in your letter? Because it feels like it's the - it's just basically four times the fourth quarter run rate, which would imply sort of 50% for the full year but not really a lot of growth versus what you just accomplished. So, I guess, how do we think about the total demand for 2019, especially if you introduced this - the cheaper version?

Elon Musk

Well, we need to bring the Shanghai factory online. I think that's the biggest driver for getting to 500K plus a year. Our car is just very expensive going into China. We've got import duties. We've got transport costs. We've got higher-cost labor here. And we've never been eligible for any of the EV tax credits. A lot of people sort of dependent on incentives. In fact, we are [indiscernible] EVs, we have the least access to incentives. It's pretty crazy because there's so many companies that - countries that have put price caps on the EV incentive, which affects Tesla. And in China, which is the biggest market for EVs, we've never had any subsidies or tax incentives for vehicles.

So it's - it is eligible for that. But it sounds like that's going to be reducing in China in the coming years. But, really, bottom line is, we need the Shanghai factory to achieve that 10k rate and other cars be affordable.

The demand for - the demand for Model 3 is insanely high. The inhibitor is affordability. It's just like people literally don't have the money to buy the car. It's got nothing to do with desire. They just don't have enough money in their bank account. If the car can be made more affordable, the demand is extraordinary.
-------END CC--------

What I think happened was that Musk was simply making a qualitative (and not quantitative) statement. He was saying look how far we've come from 0 cars back then to almost half-million today. He was not making a production forecast. And in his mind, he genuinely thought that number was approx right, as evidenced by his 350-500k M3 claim in the CC.

I think what happened later was that legal flustered him all up, and yeah you're right I don't think everybody involved had a clear idea of the numbers (they essentially forgot about the above portion of the CC). The nuances of CC vs earnings report/10k, M3 vs total vehicles, and production vs delivery were all missed.

For several days after the tweets, the press and even the bulls (Gerber, ValueAnalyst, Galileo, etc.) were not giving the correct numbers. Some people caught the 350-500k numbers, but they didn't catch that it was just M3, so they were saying stuff like 500k is not the same as 350-500k. I didn't see anyone say a word about the 600k range, even though it was directly implied by the CC (and hence my post on TMC and SA, and my emails to Tesla).

As the Bloomberg article I posted earlier shows, Musk and Tesla finally realized that they were in fact in the clear (maybe they actually read my email ;)). And I even heard Phil Lebeau yesterday on CNBC, transcribing from the earnings call, that the 400k number was the conservative estimate and the 600k the more aggressive (which I also stated in my email).

Whatever the case, the SEC was in the wrong from the beginning. Musk was not making a material statement, it was qualitative. The SEC was out for him ever since he thumbed his nose at them. It was a witch hunt, pure and simple. Unfortunately for the SEC, in their overzealousness, they did not do their homework and missed the CC and the various nuances in the different numbers (just like everybody else missed it). I hope the judge throws the book at them.
 
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You think these changes weren't the result of extensive long-term planning and discussion?

Tesla moves quickly. Any executive who's not used to moving quickly leaves, leaving only those who, like Musk, like to move quickly. The speed at which Tesla moves is why they've been eating everyone else's lunch. They need to keep doing so rather than sit back and rest on their laurels.

Yes. To borrow a term from aeronautics, Tesla is like an aerodynamically unstable Eurofighter.

Traditionalists will always point to the unstable nature and expect it to fall out of the sky at any moment. But the instability is part of the design to give it increased manoeuvrability - which will leave other slow moving OEMs in the dust.

The guys at Polestar copied everything that Tesla has done so far and yet within days, they are left twiddling their thumbs.

An unfortunate side effect of this design is that us shareholders should be able to handle the extreme G-forces without throwing up :D
 
I called a dozen tire places in the Asheville area and only one said they could do a Tesla. When I got there I was told that I had been misinformed and they couldn't do it.
That’s very odd because two years ago I was traveling in NC in my S85, and was able to do tires and alignment at Discount Tire in Asheville. Since then they have provided free flat repair, balance and rotation, at other franchise locations, even when I had not bought the tires from them! Just outfitted my X with a brand new set of Contis made just for X’s at a different franchise in Oregon. They still had me on file from my first visit in Asheville!
 
I like the pricing change on autopilot. Before it was complex. Now, with two levels: 3k or 5k for full at time of purchase vs 4k or 7k later. This is a no brainer. I will be getting the full at 5k w/ purchase. Why spend 3k on half-ass autopilot. I know full self-driving is not there yet, but in the meantime you get a lot more features and then continuous future updates. And this is all margin for Tesla. Releasing the base M3 w/ the lower and simplified autopilot pricing structure is going to be gang busters for Tesla sales this year. Watch. Why bother with the mid-level European luxury brands and also why bother with Camry or Accord? The Tesla stretch just went from a yoga class to an evening yawn. ;)
 
Almost 6 years ago, I plunked down my money based purely on the website and having seen a Model S on the road. However, I also get that I (and perhaps you) are atypical buyers. And, yes, car buying is still an emotional process--not from a nervous "hand-wringing" perspective, but in terms of building an emotional connection with the product. Look at car advertising--it's seldom designed to appeal to your logical side, its designed to make you want the car and ignore the logical part of your brain. That becomes a lot easier when you touch the product and drive the product.
Perhaps we’re in the minority, but many on TMC, based on what I’ve read, are in the same position. In my case, I wasn’t interested in buying a new car. Being retired and not having to commute more than a few feet to my office, my old ICE was fine.

Actually, never even heard of Tesla until I started hearing about it on, of all places, CNBC a few years ago. Researched online, saw the stock swing wildly with all the earlier problems, then saw Tesla address and resolve them.

Went to a gallery, sat in a pre refresh S and fell in love with it. Still couldn’t justify it, but never forgot it. Also couldn’t justify TSLA as I (foolishly) didn’t grasp the valuation and the importance of the mission. Then the refresh S was released. Still not sold or needed a new car. Then AP2 was revealed, and a few weeks later my order was placed.

Drove home after picking it up, which was the first time driving a Tesla, and I finally got it. A few weeks later I started building a position in TSLA and the rest is history.

Never needed to ask any questions when I picked the S up. Thanks to scouring TMC for months was all the answers I needed. In fact, TMC posters were a major factor in my making the jump. Reading the owners manual in mytesla acct was all I needed to know about the car, more than the good folks whose job it was to deliver it. The only question I had was, are we done yet?

While I can appreciate some people need hand holding and emotional support, the real emotions don’t surface until you own and drive a Tesla.
 
Somewhere there is an apocalyptic cult that was expecting the end of the world at noon. But now they have to recalibrates their end time prophecies.
Losing the stores and so the capacity to offer test drives may be a small issue. Hard to gauge. But, has anybody suggested some sort of new test drive referral program. It doesn't have to offer crazy rewards like before. Heck, I'm sure many current owners would be happy to do it for nothing. Tesla certainly has capability to set up such a system via the app or website. It would not be initiated by the owner, but by Tesla, by matching prospective customers with nearby owners.
This has been discussed a lot in the past. Test drives in some states are reserved for dealers. And any payment to someone for part of the sale triggers s requirement for the person to be licensed as such in some states. CA? When Tesla was involved in any way dealers threatened lawsuits. Regardless owners from states around MI for example organized their own car shows and rides
If I recall correctly in some states law enforcement was actually called to stop the test drives. Tesla is likely still.reluctant to partner with owners on this or assist in any way. I still do it anyway
 
You got it. Unfortunately, Tesla gets their sales people from the same pool as the other car dealers. Not really Tesla's fault, but what there should be is people who are enthusiastic and knowledgeable. Now some Tesla salespeople are just that, but others are not. A week's training course (or however long it is) just isn't enough.

You get what you pay for.

If you pay $15/hr CA where minimum wage for companies with over 26 employees is $12/hr, you will get just above minimum wage level employee.
 
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