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Yes, Tavares is myopic to declare that clean power should come first.

EVs already have less societal cost for pollution, even with current grid mix. This has been true at least as long ago as 2006 when Elon published the Tesla Motors Master Plan and Marc Tarpenning and Martin Eberhard published a white paper debunking the "long tailpipe" argument. BEVs produce less greenhouse gas emissions and move the toxic health-hazard pollutants from combustion (nitrous oxides, carbon monoxide, soot, etc.) away from population centers. The only thing worse about BEV pollution is fine particulates from tire dust due to the greater vehicle weight and motor power.


Also, clean power growth is already happening fast, all without help from Stellantis. Total global solar photovoltaic capacity has been riding a steady exponential growth curve for decades, with just 3 years between doublings. With that rate of growth and with solar already at ~5% of global electricity supply, it's going to become the majority of electric power production about 10 years from now, and by 2040-ish solar/wind/batteries will have wiped out almost all competing energy sources, including the other two thirds of global energy consumption that currently isn't electrified. The conversion of electricity generation to renewables is happening orders of magnitude faster than the conversion of the global motor vehicle fleet to BEVs.

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Who cares if it's possible to cherry-pick a couple of examples of countries foolishly "retreating to coal"? Data from the world as a whole portends total annihilation of the business case for thermal power stations (coal, gas, nuclear, geothermal, biomass) caused by an overwhelming, unstoppable onslaught from solar, wind and batteries. In the world's richest countries, where most of the total car-driving is occurring for now and the foreseeable future, coal consumption has fallen to about half of its peak from around 2007. When solar prices hit $10/MWh, who is going to keep operating those fossil fuel power plants? Does Carlos Tavares even believe that solar energy is headed to $10/MWh and below, even though understanding this fact is critical to predicting the direction his industry is headed?

Joe Manchin can do whatever he wants to try to save West Virginia coal, but more bankruptcies are inevitably coming. The coal mines and power plants will continue to retire and the people working in the industry will find something else to do or move out of WV. It's like dumping a bucket of water on a fish flopping around on the ground and hoping that the fish will survive. Lazard estimates now show that solar PV has eclipsed the marginal operating cost of fully depreciated coal plants in the USA.

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Yes, Tavares is totally wrong about that too.

This is a dynamic transition with feedback loops. Charging infrastructure is growing alongside the BEV fleet. What matters is whether there is sufficient charging infrastructure to provide demand for BEVs for continued global growth of BEV production and sales . What does not matter is whether sufficient charging infrastructure exists right now to support the entire end game of 100% BEVs, because all those BEVs don't exist yet and by the time they do exist, the charging will exist too. We know that today the demand for BEVs is high relative to supply. The sold-out order backlogs, high prices, consumer research and heavy investment in production capacity expansion conclusively demonstrate this fact. Thus, we have enough charging infrastructure.

History is filled with examples of new technology markets that relied on concurrent growth of supporting infrastructure. Someone mentioned iPhones and 5G. How about home appliances and electricity grids? Cars and gas stations + asphalt roads? Printing press and paper supply? Software and computers to run it on? The early adopters find a way to make it work for niche use cases, and momentum builds from there with end uses and infrastructure developing in lockstep with each other.


Yes, his opinion on that is incorrect too.

Also, I guarantee Stellantis is selling those BEVs at a loss, meaning that those are subsidized BEVs. Anything can be made affordable by selling it for less than it costs to produce, but that's not sustainable or scalable. I'm not impressed with their efforts. The previous CEO of Fiat Chrysler, Sergio Marchionne, explicitly and bluntly said that the company was only attempting to make compliance EVs:


These comments came in 2014. Are we to believe that in 8 years Stellantis has made so much progress on A) caring about the future of the planet and their own long-term financial solvency and B) BEV technology that suddenly they are a world leader in BEV affordability? Or is it more likely that these still are compliance cars and nothing more?

Again, transitioning to sustainable mobility is a dynamic problem, so the time dimension can't be ignored. Tavares could have figured out the optimal approach by reviewing the 2006 Master Plan. Current EVs are selling out at current prices, which means that the market has enough forcing function to continue growing at top speed. We will get to the promised land as long as this condition constantly remains true while we descend the Wright's Law curve for BEV technology cost. EVs don't need to be cheap in 2022. They will need to be cheap by 2032, assuming we haven't largely moved on to robotaxis by then.


Stellantis's "goals already established" are a joke.

Behold a plan for bankruptcy:

  • 75+ different BEV models in their portfolio by 2030 in addition to 25% sales of ICEVs and hybrids
    • The same "Dare Forward 2030" presentation emphasizes how important it is to "reduce complexity at all levels"...lol
    • Model 3 & Y alone could sell as much or more in 2025 than Stellantis's entire 2030 goal of 5M BEVs
  • Same old foolish strategy of having shared platforms used by both ICE and battery powertrains instead of just optimizing a custom BEV design
  • Hydrogen fuel cells still viewed as core part of future market for trucks and vans
  • Not carbon neutral until 2038
  • Still investing capital in new generations of combustion engines
Tavares here in the screenshot below presents a misleading table comparing the best-case scenario refueling time for an H2 van (assuming the pump is nearby and ready to pump) with battery recharge time using a wimpy 11 kW wall charger.

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CEOs are supposed to be visionary leaders. That's literally a CEO's main job, especially in an industry undergoing a major once-in-a-lifetime technology disruption. Merely being a disciplined manager is insufficient. A CEO must lead and manage. The CEO should be telling people what the future is going to look like, why it'll be great, and persuading them to want to do the work to get there. There is no way Tavares's wishy-washy public comments about BEVs are helping Stellantis recruit the best and most motivated people...who are all going to Tesla.


Right. Begging and pleading, and proffering that as an excuse for sitting and waiting another 10 or 20 years for aggressive BEV growth, if only it weren't for pesky tree-hugging governments meddling in their market. I can think of another car manufacturer that has been actively helping with clean energy and charging infrastructure for the last decade.


Brazil may be Stellantis's best market for share of volume, but Stellantis makes the majority of their profit in North America from selling Jeep off-road toys and Ram pickups. North America accounted for €7.7B, or 62%, of their total €12.4B of reported "adjusted operating income" in H1 2022. Europe was another €3.3B, whereas all of South America was €1B. With ~90% of Stellantis' income coming from North America and Europe, I doubt the Brazilian market is a cornerstone of the company's near-term and medium-term electrification priorities. Their official strategic plan is heavily focused on electrification in Europe where the emissions regulations are most stringent, which is fitting because their plan is to produce compliance cars while pretending to care about the health of people and our biosphere.


Stellantis has no viable solution for making Jeeps and Rams electric at an affordable price with market-competitive specs, because they don't have the necessary technology nor do they have the courage and humility to copy the Cybertruck.

(Edit: By the way, Brazil and most of the rest of Latin America already have extremely high percentages of renewables in their electricity mixes, especially if we count hydroelectric dams.)
@Gigapress does not disappoint.
 
Car ratchets down from 75 to 35 still as if it thinks there is not a one or more year old 4 lane divided highway. If this worked on a vision only approach, the vision would inform the car to keep going. There is something using old data, not relying on that which it senses.
…just like old fashioned NOA (or even simple TACC) on the newish 12 lane section of HWY 401 (Toronto) between Mississauga and Milton.

I sure wish map data would override visual data everywhere.
 
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43 nm . . . WOW . . . that's so . . . 2008.

I hope the fabs tell them to pound sand. Enough is enough, time to upgrade your chips, those suckers are long since EoL. Even for automotive runs.
Well, the fabs will continue to make these ancient chips because the chips are only there to do one simple task like actuating the window gear. These chips are cheap and low margins. VW plus everyone in the industry all order from these companies the entire controller board to do these simple tasks all around the car. So I don't expect these ancient chips to go away anytime soon as they are commoditized cheap junk that gets the task done.

It's literally no better than what they put in a fisher price toy. Don't be expecting 14nm chips in those dollar tree toys.
 
Well, the fabs will continue to make these ancient chips because the chips are only there to do one simple task like actuating the window gear. These chips are cheap and low margins. VW plus everyone in the industry all order from these companies the entire controller board to do these simple tasks all around the car. So I don't expect these ancient chips to go away anytime soon as they are commoditized cheap junk that gets the task done.

It's literally no better than what they put in a fisher price toy. Don't be expecting 14nm chips in those dollar tree toys.
But if it does mean thousands of nearly complete cars sitting around, or needing to shutdown a factory production line, that is an expensive problem for the carmaker to have.

If they had an option to use a chip that might cost say $10 more, it could be a good option.
 
But if it does mean thousands of nearly complete cars sitting around, or needing to shutdown a factory production line, that is an expensive problem for the carmaker to have.

If they had an option to use a chip that might cost say $10 more, it could be a good option.
When car companies say "chip shortage", they actually mean their supplier has a chip shortage. Volkswagen and Mercedes wouldn't know what to do with a bunch of chips. They need it to come as an entire unit so they can just screw it onto the car.
 
But if it does mean thousands of nearly complete cars sitting around, or needing to shutdown a factory production line, that is an expensive problem for the carmaker to have.

If they had an option to use a chip that might cost say $10 more, it could be a good option.
The problem is they would have to port the programs, which I think is partly done by their suppliers, and test them. This is hard to do when every supplier needs to coordinate. Remember how long the VW EVs sat because the programming didn’t work.
 
When car companies say "chip shortage", they actually mean their supplier has a chip shortage. Volkswagen and Mercedes wouldn't know what to do with a bunch of chips. They need it to come as an entire unit so they can just screw it onto the car.
Or maybe chip shortage is a euphemism, for no one wants to buy that car…
 
Well, as it turned out I was favorably impressed by 10.69.2. Indeed, as I expected some things got better and some got worse, but on the whole it was noticeably better.

At a local hairpin turn it used to come to a complete stop a bit before the turn and after some hemming and hawing finally goes around it. Now it still comes to a complete stop, but spends less time sitting there and goes around with a little more assurance. So, still unusable if there's any traffic, but a bit better.

At one unprotected left it edged to the right side of the lane before the turn. What?

It did noticeably better on an awkward left turn that it used to approach too shallowly and had to jerkily adjust at the last moment.

In a school zone with lots of kids on the sidewalks it did not get spooked by all the pedestrians. And it stopped for some people about to cross in a crosswalk, then continued on slowly when they were about 3/4 of the way across. So not bad.

It continues to show very poor judgment on lane choice. For instance on one local divided heavily retail road with three lanes in each direction, it insists on being in the rightmost lane despite parked cars and cars constantly entering and exiting the road. A human would never drive in that lane for any distance, as it's asking for trouble. And on local streets with no lane markings it keeps centering itself in the drivable space, which means that parked cars make it weave around, which is usually stupid.

And it's regressed again on a right turn needed for me to get home. It slows, considers, and seems to decide to turn right about a quarter second after it runs out of room to do so. Truly annoying.

So, by keeping my expectations really low, I'm pleased with what I see. But it is just a small improvement, and there's no hope in hell that this drives itself most places in this calendar year.
I made the critical mistake of letting my expectations rise for 10.69.2.2. Big disappointment. No improvements from 10.69.2. The stuff it screwed up with that version it still screws up with the new one.

And I tried a couple of other things which it screwed up. There's a place where it used to come to a full stop in an intersection while on a two lane (each way) divided road. Still does, braking from 40mph. No apparent reason. I also tried a local road which takes a right angle left turn with a really wide area (like a cul de sac) at the turn. No lane markings. It just came to a stop, confused about how to turn left to follow the route.

Anyway, once again, it seems to drive safely, just fairly uselessly if you want it to drive on its own. The rate of improvement is going to have to accelerate significantly if Tesla wants this to be functional FSD within the next few years.
 
After hours comment. Lots of folks singing praises of FSB-beta with .69.x. I'll just offer a video to counter. Here's a phantom braking episode that I experienced last night. FSD was driving on a 45 MPH street with nothing (that I could see live or reviewing the video) to cause this behavior. FSD-beta not only "slowed" the car on the 45MPH street, but it took it to a COMPLETE STOP.

I'm super excited about this product (obviously I'm driving FSD-beta), and it does some thing really well... but I still think there's plenty of work yet to go.
 
After hours comment. Lots of folks singing praises of FSB-beta with .69.x. I'll just offer a video to counter. Here's a phantom braking episode that I experienced last night. FSD was driving on a 45 MPH street with nothing (that I could see live or reviewing the video) to cause this behavior. FSD-beta not only "slowed" the car on the 45MPH street, but it took it to a COMPLETE STOP.

I'm super excited about this product (obviously I'm driving FSD-beta), and it does some thing really well... but I still think there's plenty of work yet to go.
Sometimes I feel like maybe it's overheating or one of the chip is rebooting, or switching from one crashed chip to the other. But yeah this happens for no rhythm or reason.
 
Tesla has $2.7B in Deferred Revenue related to the Auto business most of it FSD deferred revenue.
Of the $2.7B, Tesla stated in the Q2 10Q that it expects to realize $1B in the next 12 months.
I believe this $1B number relates to FSD in the US representing about 250,000 vehicles.
I think if 10.69.2.1 is available to anyone with a score of 80% or higher, then Tesla may recognize around $800m in Q3 adding about $0.23 to earnings which on it's own would provide a 20% beat on Wall Street's $1.07 earnings estimate.

In my opinion, for revenue recognition, if an FSD purchaser in the US had not bothered to use the Safety Score app, Tesla would still recognize the revenue as they have made it available to them. In other words, they are only preventing people from getting FSD beta with scores below 80%.

I am open to other viewpoints if anyone has different thinking on this.

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Doesn't say anything about a 100,000 cars in this tweet by Elon and I don't remember him ever announcing a change in percentage that also mentioned 100,000.

I'm saying he just announces the minimum score and then his team adds more people.

I'm thinking you are misinterpreting his tweet... (snipped for space)

You may be correct but I didn't read his tweet to mean that they would still be selective with scores above 80%.
We'll know shortly once it rolls out.

OK, the statement from Elon was "Beta expanding to safety scores above 80 after 10.69.2.1 goes out"

He now has said "FSD Beta 10.69.2.1 looks good, extending to 160k owners in US & Canada"

Is this enough to call it or did you expect a slow rollout?

I'm not sure if 160K is supposed to be an additional 160K or if it's just 60K more than the first 100K.

I'm also not confident that 160K is enough to be all the people above 80 on safety scores that didn't have it.

Anyone want to guess the scale of that group? I'm not ready to call either of us wrong yet, but maybe the wisdom of the crowds can help us decide.